Huh?

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circumspice
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Huh?

Post by circumspice » Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:29 pm

*big gusty sigh*

I've been downloading various publications about ancient Egypt lately to supplement the sparse info available through the popular media. (never the most reliable sources anyway) What really irritates me is that there is virtually no concensus. On any subject. *argh!!!*

So anyway, I've been reading up on the so called Amarna period & its immediate aftermath. One 'fact' struck me as odd. Remember the Tutankhamun Family Genetic project? (Zahi Hawass's pet project) The study unequivocally stated that the Younger Lady was the mother of Tut's female fetuses, along with Tut being the father. This would probably indicate that she was his only 'known' wife Ankhesenamun... right? It also identified KV55 unequivocally as Akhenaten/Amenhotep IV & the father of Tut... They also went a step further to identify KV55 as the son of Amenhotep III... Which fits neatly in the genealogy of the Tutmosid family in general. Still following?

In two of the publications that I read, the mummy Younger Lady, identified as the mother of Tut's stillborn daughters, was said to have zero genetic relationship to KV55... Therefore, she can't be Tut's half sister Ankhesenamun, one of 6 'known' daughters of Akhenaten & Nefertiti... Nowhere in any other publication that I've read makes that statement. So... I'm guessing that Tut had more wives/consorts than the only 'known' wife. That would make perfect sense. He's a king. He needs an heir & a few spares keep the dynasty viable. It's been nearly a decade since that genetic info was released. Why hasn't the popular media picked up on it? Huh?

And... Those two publications also stated that the resolution of the genetic study on Tut's family was course & open to large errors.

"A match of only five alleles does not prove any conclusive close family relationship. The data published by Hawass et al. gives only eight autosomal STR markers (Hawass et al., 2010)."


The paper went on to say that 10 markers are required to establish familial relationships in the UK & 13 markers are required in the US...

*face palm*

Is there any other freely available info out there? I wish that the Egyptian government would have allowed an outside lab to do a double blind on the study... I'd love to see how Svante Paabo would have handled it.
"Damn with faint praise, assent with civil leer, and, without sneering, teach the rest to sneer." ~ Alexander Pope

kbs2244
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Re: Huh?

Post by kbs2244 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:43 pm

Sorry to be the one to beak this news
But the "popular media" only prints what sells
That means a subject must have a lot of popular interest.
Evidently not many other people share your interest.

This sounds more like a thesis subject.

.

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circumspice
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Re: Huh?

Post by circumspice » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:59 am

No... It's already a done deal, a completed study. It was completed in 2010. The Egyptian government will not allow any DNA testing or genetic studies outside the country because they believe that any outside testing will conclude that ancient Egyptians are closely related to Jews. They refuse to let that happen. They refuse to acknowledge that semitic peoples have lived in that region & mixed with other peoples for millennia. It's kind of like Japanese genealogists who are hired to do a genealogical study of a family (prior to a marriage) to 'prove' that they are not tainted with Ainu blood...
"Damn with faint praise, assent with civil leer, and, without sneering, teach the rest to sneer." ~ Alexander Pope

kbs2244
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Re: Huh?

Post by kbs2244 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:18 pm

I did not know that

Simon21
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Re: Huh?

Post by Simon21 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:48 am

circumspice wrote:No... It's already a done deal, a completed study. It was completed in 2010. The Egyptian government will not allow any DNA testing or genetic studies outside the country because they believe that any outside testing will conclude that ancient Egyptians are closely related to Jews. They refuse to let that happen. They refuse to acknowledge that semitic peoples have lived in that region & mixed with other peoples for millennia. It's kind of like Japanese genealogists who are hired to do a genealogical study of a family (prior to a marriage) to 'prove' that they are not tainted with Ainu blood...
And how would DNA prove the religious affiliation of the body being tested? And how does the Egyptian Government prevent DNA testing outside Egypt?

Is it not the case that like certain Koorie people and others (Maori, ultra jewish orthodox) using their ancestors remains for research purposes is seen as a desecration. And considering the enormous fight they have had to get Museums to yield up the remains of their ancestors one can see the point of view.

You get interesting info on this from the book Severed - A history of heads lost and found.

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Re: Huh?

Post by Minimalist » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:16 am

The story does not appear to be true.

https://www.businessinsider.com/r-whos- ... ped-2017-5
Genetic tests of mummies are revealing surprises about the ancestry of ancient Egyptians

DNA from mummies found at a site once known for its cult to the Egyptian god of the afterlife is unwrapping intriguing insight into the people of ancient Egypt, including a surprise discovery that they had scant genetic ties to sub-Saharan Africa.

Scientists on Tuesday said they examined genome data from 90 mummies from the Abusir el-Malek archaeological site, located about 70 miles (115 km) south of Cairo, in the most sophisticated genetic study of ancient Egyptians ever conducted.

There must be a paper on this somewhere on the web.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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circumspice
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Re: Huh?

Post by circumspice » Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:10 pm

And how would DNA prove the religious affiliation of the body being tested? And how does the Egyptian Government prevent DNA testing outside Egypt?


The Egyptian government prevents outsider genetic testing on the human remains that are within their control, i.e. all human remains that are in Egypt. They can only protest genetic testing on ancient Egyptian human remains that are located in other countries. Genetic testing can't prove religious affiliations, it can only prove ethnicity & familial relationships. Jews are a recognized ethnic group... Egyptians, for fairly obvious reasons, don't want to be told that they are in any way related to Jews.
"Damn with faint praise, assent with civil leer, and, without sneering, teach the rest to sneer." ~ Alexander Pope

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circumspice
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Re: Huh?

Post by circumspice » Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:24 pm

Too bad they used only genetic material from the New Kingdom & later times. I would like to have seen a comparison of the genetics of ancient Egyptians from the predynastic period up through the present time. I wonder how they got the Egyptian government to cooperate on such a study? Did they bind & gag Zahi Hawass? Inquiring minds want to know...
"Damn with faint praise, assent with civil leer, and, without sneering, teach the rest to sneer." ~ Alexander Pope

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Re: Huh?

Post by Minimalist » Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:49 pm

Zahi suffers from the stain of having been too close to Mubarak. You know, those people can hold a grudge!
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Cognito
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Re: Huh?

Post by Cognito » Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:32 pm

"A match of only five alleles does not prove any conclusive close family relationship. The data published by Hawass et al. gives only eight autosomal STR markers (Hawass et al., 2010)."
From ISOGG Wiki: https://isogg.org/wiki/CODIS

The previous genetic analysis really appears to be unsophisticated. If truth was being sought (which may not be the case), whoever has the bio samples could re-test using today's techniques which are more accurate than ten years ago and result in better conclusions regarding genetic affinity with others. The cost? Absolutely minimal. :roll:
Natural selection favors the paranoid

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circumspice
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Re: Huh?

Post by circumspice » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:30 am

Cognito wrote:
"A match of only five alleles does not prove any conclusive close family relationship. The data published by Hawass et al. gives only eight autosomal STR markers (Hawass et al., 2010)."
From ISOGG Wiki: https://isogg.org/wiki/CODIS

The previous genetic analysis really appears to be unsophisticated. If truth was being sought (which may not be the case), whoever has the bio samples could re-test using today's techniques which are more accurate than ten years ago and result in better conclusions regarding genetic affinity with others. The cost? Absolutely minimal. :roll:


Maybe the truth isn't being sought. I noted that the article that min cited states that prior to the Greco Roman era, Egyptians had few genetic ties to Sub Saharan populations. I'm sure that was met with howls of protests about white conspiracy & racism by the very vocal Afro centrists who claim that the ancient Egyptians were black sub Saharan Africans. As I said before, I'd like to see what kind of results Svante Paabo would get.
"Damn with faint praise, assent with civil leer, and, without sneering, teach the rest to sneer." ~ Alexander Pope

kbs2244
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Re:Pre GrecRoman Egypt

Post by kbs2244 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:58 pm

Wasn’t there an Egypt to sub Sahara, salt for gold, camel train culture that pre-dated the Greco Roman era?
Very little genetic ties but still slavery contact at least.

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circumspice
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Re: Re:Pre GrecRoman Egypt

Post by circumspice » Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:44 pm

kbs2244 wrote:Wasn’t there an Egypt to sub Sahara, salt for gold, camel train culture that pre-dated the Greco Roman era?
Very little genetic ties but still slavery contact at least.


Camels were probably introduced into ancient Egypt during the Assyrian & Persian invasions, circa 7th to 6th century BCE. (Arabian mercenaries?)
"Damn with faint praise, assent with civil leer, and, without sneering, teach the rest to sneer." ~ Alexander Pope

kbs2244
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Re: Huh?

Post by kbs2244 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:53 pm

The Trans-Saharan Gold Trade (7th–14th Century)

Gold Trade and the Kingdom of Ancient Ghana

Around the fifth century, thanks to the availability of the camel, Berber-speaking people began crossing the Sahara Desert. From the eighth century onward, annual trade caravans followed routes later described by Arabic authors with minute attention to detail

https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/gold/hd_gold.htm

So, you are correct.
It was a later trade route

Simon21
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Re: Huh?

Post by Simon21 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:18 pm

circumspice wrote:
And how would DNA prove the religious affiliation of the body being tested? And how does the Egyptian Government prevent DNA testing outside Egypt?


The Egyptian government prevents outsider genetic testing on the human remains that are within their control, i.e. all human remains that are in Egypt. They can only protest genetic testing on ancient Egyptian human remains that are located in other countries. Genetic testing can't prove religious affiliations, it can only prove ethnicity & familial relationships. Jews are a recognized ethnic group... Egyptians, for fairly obvious reasons, don't want to be told that they are in any way related to Jews.
Modern decsions on ethnicity are not relevant here you cannot tell from ancient remains whether someone is jewish from DNA (re Masada). And it is insulting to suggest that the Egpytians are too stupid to know this. And given the intrusive and insensitive desecation of ancient remains the Egyptians are only reflecting the views of many national groups on the treatment of thier ancestors remains - including orthodox jews.

The whole thing sounds like yet another anti arab cod.

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