Did Helike inspire Plato's Atlantis?

The Old World is a reference to those parts of Earth known to Europeans before the voyages of Christopher Columbus; it includes Europe, Asia and Africa.

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Post by Minimalist » Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:32 pm

A second century Roman map of the world

from this page

http://www.tonyperrottet.com/paganholiday/maps.php

A blown up version.


Image


It does seem to say Oceanus Atlanticus out beyond Spain. Of course, this is 600 years after Herodotus and Plato and the Romans were shameless grecophiles.
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Post by Digit » Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:01 pm

Without entering the debate either pro or con the existance of Atlantis I have always felt that the argument against that states it was mentioned only by Plato seems a desperate attempt to conjour up all the arguments against that they could find.
If Plato's account had been lost we wouldn't have heard of it at all! As far as we know there may have been in the past a whole body of writings on the subject of which Plato's is the sole survivor.
It's a pretty lousy argument!

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Post by Ishtar » Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:08 pm

Digit wrote:Without entering the debate either pro or con the existance of Atlantis I have always felt that the argument against that states it was mentioned only by Plato seems a desperate attempt to conjour up all the arguments against that they could find.

I don't think Plato's is the only mention of it. I've just dug this out of my Atlantis file:

It's from Wikipedia but a few years ago:

Aristotle:

Aristotle wrote of a large island in the Atlantic Ocean that the Carthaginians knew as Antilia. Proclus, the commentator of "Timaeus" mentions that Marcellus, relying on ancient historians, stated in his Aethiopiaka that in the Outer Ocean (which meant all oceans, not just the Atlantic) there were seven small islands dedicated to Persephone, and three large ones; one of these, comprising 1,000 stadia in length, was dedicated to Poseidon. Proclus tells us that Crantor reported that he, too, had seen the columns on which the story of Atlantis was preserved as reported by Plato: the Saite priest showed him its history in hieroglyphic characters. Some other writers called it Poseidonis after Poseidon. Plutarch mentions Saturnia or Ogygia about five days' sail to the west of what is called nowadays Britain. He added that westwards from that island, there were the three islands of Cronus, to where proud and warlike men used to come from the continent beyond the islands, in order to offer sacrifice to the gods of the ocean.

Other Greek accounts:
An important Greek festival of Pallas Athene, the Panathenaea was dated from the days of king Theseus. It consisted of a solemn procession to the Acropolis in which a peplos was carried to the goddess, for she had once saved the city, gaining victory over the nation of Poseidon, that is, the Atlanteans. As Lewis Spence comments, this cult was in existence already 125 years before Plato, which means that the story could not be invented by him.

The historian Ammianus Marcellinus wrote that the intelligentsia of Alexandria considered the destruction of Atlantis a historical fact and described a class of earthquakes that suddenly, by a violent motion, opened up huge mouths and so swallowed up portions of the earth, as once in the Atlantic Ocean a large island was swallowed up.

Diodorus Siculus recorded that the Atlanteans did not know the fruits of Ceres. In fact, Old World cereals were unknown to American Indians.

Pausanias called this island "Satyrides," referring to the Atlantes and those who profess to know the measurements of the earth. He states that far west of the Ocean there lies a group of islands whose inhabitants are red-skinned and whose hair is like that of the horse. (Christopher Columbus described the Indians similarly.)

A fragmentary work of Theophrastus of Lesbos tells about the colonies of Atlantis in the sea.

Hesiod wrote that the garden of the Hesperides was on an island in the sea where the sun sets. Pliny the Elder recorded that this land was 12,000 km distant from Cádiz.

Uba, a Numidian talks of an enormous island outside the Pillars of Hercules. He describes it as having a climate that is very mild; fruits and vegetables grow ripe throughout the year. There are huge mountains covered with large forests, and wide, irrigable plains with navigable rivers. Scylax of Caryanda gives similar account.

Marcellus claims that the survivors of the sinking Atlantis migrated to Western Europe.

Timagenes tells almost the same, citing the Druids of Gaul as his sources. He tries to classify the Gallic tribes according to their origins and tells of one of these claiming that they were colonists who came there from a remote island.

Theopompus of Chios, a Greek historian called this land beyond the ocean as "Meropis". The dialogue between King Midas and the wise Silenus mentions the Meropids, the first men with huge cities of gold and silver. Silenus knows that besides the well-known portions of the world there is another, unknown, of incredible immensity, where immeasurably vast blooming meadows and pastures feed herds of various, huge and mighty beasts.

Claudius Aelianus cites Theopompus, knowing of the existence of the huge island out in the Atlantic as a continuing tradition among the Phoenicians or Carthaginians of Cádiz.

Perhaps the Byzantine friar Cosmas Indicopleustes understood Plato better than the ancient and modern "Aristotelians", says Merezhkovsky. In his Topographia Christiana he included a chart of the (flat) world: it showed an inner continent, a compact mainland surrounded by sea, and this was surrounded by an outer ring-shaped continent, with the inscription, "The earth beyond the Ocean, where men lived before the Flood." The Garden of Eden is placed in the eastern end of this continent.

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Post by rich » Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:24 pm

Cogs-

You didn't even copy and paste his next para - right from the same link you gave:
But one of the mouths of the Araxes flows with clarity into the Caspian Sea; but the Caspian Sea is by itself, not connected to the other sea. For the sea navigated by all the Greeks and the one outside the Pillars called the Atlantis Sea and the Erythraean, are one and the same." (Translated by R. Cedric Leonard)

One does not need to be a Greek scholar to recognize the word "Atlantis" in the above Greek text (line 5, 3rd word from the left). Many of my colleagues insist that the phrase should be translated "the sea of Atlas" instead of the Atlantis Sea. While it is true that Atlantis is an inflected form of Atlas, these very same colleagues have never suggested that when Plato speaks of the "island of Atlantis" it would be more properly translated as the "island of Atlas". The island and the ocean were called "Atlantis" because they were named after Atlas (which is what the name "Atlantis" means).
And again:
The point here, which cannot be gainsaid, is that Atlantis was known before Plato--so well-known that the sea outside Gibraltar was commonly called the Atlantis Sea in Herodotus' time. It had acquired that name because Atlantis had once occupied that area. We carry the same tradition down when we refer to that same body of water as the Atlantic. While in Europe, I noticed that their maps label the same ocean "Atlantischer," preserving the word "Atlantis" intact.
Right on the same page - just the following paragraphs.
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Atlantis

Post by Cognito » Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:46 pm

Cogs-

You didn't even copy and paste his next para - right from the same link you gave:

The point here, which cannot be gainsaid, is that Atlantis was known before Plato--so well-known that the sea outside Gibraltar was commonly called the Atlantis Sea in Herodotus' time. It had acquired that name because Atlantis had once occupied that area. We carry the same tradition down when we refer to that same body of water as the Atlantic. While in Europe, I noticed that their maps label the same ocean "Atlantischer," preserving the word "Atlantis" intact.

Yes, Rich, I didn't bother with the follow on quote by Leonard since it was heavily opinionated. In a more literal translation of Herodotus Book I, 203 by McCauley:
ἡ δὲ Κασπίη θάλασσα ἐστὶ ἐπ᾽ ἑωυτῆς, οὐ συμμίσγουσα τῇ ἑτέρῃ θαλάσσῃ. τὴν μὲν γὰρ Ἕλληνὲς ναυτίλλονται πᾶσα καὶ ἡ ἔξω στηλέων θάλασσα ἡ Ἀτλαντὶς καλεομένη καὶ ἡ Ἐρυθρὴ μία ἐοῦσα τυγχάνει. ἡ δὲ Κασπίη ἐστὶ ἑτέρη ἐπ᾽ ἑωυτῆς.
Direct translation:
Now the Caspian Sea is apart by itself, not having connection with the other Sea: for all that Sea which the Hellenes navigate, and the Sea beyond the Pillars, which is called Atlantis, and the Erythraian Sea are in fact all one, but the Caspian is separate and lies apart by itself.


The bold is mine. Herodotus was calling the area or sea beyond the Pillars of Herakles "Atlantis" - not the Atlantic Ocean or Sea of Atlas, although the term "Atlantis" is a deflection. Maybe he heard the same tale handed down by Solon? :D
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Post by rich » Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:39 pm

Eh - we'll probably never really know - like I said - so many manuscripts and stuff were burned thru the ages either because it was looked at as pagan or demonic or that it might taint or undermine their religions - which they did all by themselves anyways.
Shame I guess, but in either case, the only thing that I was getting at is that if - and that's a really - super big if - there was such a thing - it would have made it easier for the journey across the Atlantic back then.
What gets me going is when they come out and say this or that "inspired" Plato to write about Atlantis - he was smart enough to have come up with the story without any outside inspiration if he wanted. Just seems like they push it too hard to make sense.
i'm not lookin' for who or what made the earth - just who got me dizzy by makin it spin

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Post by Ishtar » Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:31 am

Cheer up, Rich. :D We may get there yet. From Min’s Roman map, we may have the answer to the problem. Or an answer ...

On Min’s map, we can see that the sea to the south of India and Arabia is called the Mare Erythraean Indica.

So back to the Herodotus quote:
For the sea navigated by all the Greeks and the one outside the Pillars called the Atlantis Sea and the Erythraean, are one and the same."
One and the same.

Min’s map shows how the Greeks and the Grecophile Romans saw the world oceans at that time, as they were "Mediterranean-centric" (Middle of the Earth) in their views. They visualised the Mediterranean as a sort of large lake in the middle of some huge landmasses (continents) which were encircled by "the Typhon", or river of water of which the Atlantic was a part, thus making it part of the Erythraean, to the south of Indonesia, India and Arabia.

In fact, it is claimed that the Atlantic Ocean of today is not the one known to the Greeks.

This then leads us to the Indonesia/Sundaland theory of the Atlantis homeland of Professor Arysio Nunes dos Santos.

Professor Santos is a nuclear physicist who has worked as a geologist and a climatologist, so we are not dealing here with some crank that doesn’t know how to think scientifically. He does, however, have the annoying habit of reminding one incessantly how he has been proved right even though no-one listened to him at the time.

However, if you can bring yourself to read past this irritating egoism, he does have a book, and a very good website that goes into a lot of detail about his theory here: http://www.atlan.org/book/

Here's an excerpt going into the geological aspects of his theory:

Another important fact was the discovery that the date of the cataclysm which caused the end of the Pleistocene Ice Age — very probably a Heinrich Event, as is fast becoming clear — was not only sudden and brutal, but occurred at the date stipulated by Plato, that of 11,600 years ago. So, it seems the old philosopher was right after all, despite the fact that scientists still adamantly refuse to believe in the reality of the Flood cataclysm. The nature of the cataclysm which caused the end of the Pleistocene Ice Age — the Heinrich Events just mentioned — also seem to be the result of the events precogized by ourselves some 20 years ago, that is, the result of giant maritime invasions caused by giant tsunamis, themselves caused by explosive supervolcanic eruptions, as discussed in this text.

Scientists have not yet realized the real cause of Heinrich Events, but I am sure they soon will, when they realize the utter impossibility of the mechanism now held to have been responsible for them: the breaking open of giant lakes dammed by the glaciers themselves.

As some geologists of note have remarked, this damming is impossible for several good reasons, one of them the lack of mechanical resistance on their part. The reduction of glacier albedo by soot deposition has also been proposed as a possible cause, just as we predicted it would be. In other words, though no prophets, our predictions turned out to be quite accurate. In fact, they are obvious on hindsight, since they are so logical....

This giant explosion is widely attested in all sorts of myths and traditions such as those concerning Atlantis and Paradise, indeed located in this region of the world. It is universally remembered as the explosion of the Mountain of Paradise (i.e. Mt. Krakatoa, Atlas, Sinai, Zion, Alborj, Qaf, Golgotha, Meru, etc.) and of the deluge it caused, of which they all speak obsessively as the Universal Flood and the Universal Conflagration.

The explosion of Mt. Krakatoa caused a giant tsunami, which ravaged the lowlands of Atlantis and Lemuria. It also triggered the end of the last Ice Age by covering the continental glaciers with a layer of soot (fly ash), which precipitated their melting by increasing the absorption of sunshine. The giant tsunami it caused also resulted in a maritime invasion of the continents surrounding the Pacific region and, above all, of the Antarctic region. The result was that the glaciers were floated by these invading waters and carried back to the ocean, when these waters returned to it. This process has recently been confirmed by geological and oceanographic research, and is called Heinrich Events. These are associated with the cataclysm end of the Pleistocene Ice age, and are sudden and brutal.

The meltwaters of these glaciers — covered by soot or carried off as glaciers and banquises — flowed into the oceans, raising sea-level by about 100-150 meters. This huge rise in sea level created tremendous strains and stresses in the crust of the earth due to the extra weight on the seafloor and the isostatic rebound of the continents, alleviated of the colossal weight of the mile-thick glaciers which formerly covered them. The crust then cracked open in the weak spots, engendering further volcanic eruptions, and further earthquakes and tsunamis which fedback (positively) the process, furthering it to completion. The result was the dramatic end of the Pleistocene Ice Age and the so-called Quaternary Extinctions which we mentioned above.
In other words, the cause of the end the last ice age was huge volcanoes and giant tsunamis, and it was this, and not a build up of glacial meltwater, that caused the glaciers to flow into the oceans. He says it was Krakatoa in Indonesia that exploded.

A US researcher, Bill Lauritzen, also believes that Atlantis was around Indonesia. He says that the Destruction of Mankind story in the Pyramid Texts of Egypt are very similar to the Atlantis story and may have been the basis for it. This would give us the Egyptian/Solon link, and we know Plato was in Egypt.

Lauritzen also points out that most of the other locations suggested for Atlantis had no elephants, (which figure in the Atlantis story) while Indonesia does have elephants.

One also has to wonder how Plato knew about elephants in Greece? This would lead one the conclusion that he must have heard the story somewhere else, from someone who’d seen an elephant. Of course, the end of Pleistocene is when mammoths became extinct, and mammoths are a type of elephantoid.

Lauritzen says in his book, "The Atom and the Soul":
These are several possible conclusions we might draw:

· 9000 BC: Ancient humans, driven from Sundaland by rising ocean waters or volcanic explosions, came into Mediterranean and fought with ancient Egyptians. (Plato’s story is completely correct.)

· 1200 BC: Ancient humans, from China-Taiwan, traveled to Indonesia, perhaps established a settlement near Krakatau, then went on to Africa (Madagascar), and then around Africa to the Mediterranean (Egypt). They fought with the Egyptians. This became documented on Nile river monuments where the Austronesians are dubbed the “Sea People.” (Plato wrongly ascribed an ancient date of 9000 BC, rather than circa 1200 BC.)

· 1200 BC: The Sea People came from inside the Mediterranean (perhaps Crete?). Plato ascribed a wrong date to the event (9000 BC) and a wrong geographical source (outside the Mediterranean) to the people. Plato confuses or blends together various stories of destruction (Thera, Krakatau), various civilizations, various times and creates a fascinating tale of an ideal society that gets destroyed.

Of course, various combinations of these three could be correct.
Professor Santos also believes that the Indian Kumari Kandam was part of this Indonesian sunken Atlantis. At Mahabalipuram on the Bay of Bengal (between India and Indonesia) the tops the the golden pagodas or temples could be seen up to a couple of hundred years ago at certain low tides. They, or something like them, was uncovered again after the last tsunami.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4302115.stm

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Post by Cognito » Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:30 pm

A second century Roman map of the world
A blown up version.

It does seem to say Oceanus Atlanticus out beyond Spain. Of course, this is 600 years after Herodotus and Plato and the Romans were shameless grecophiles.
Min, the map posted is a nineteenth century reproduction based on Dionysius Periegetes' poem entitled "Description of the Inhabitable Earth", originally written in Greek sometime near the second century AD and translated into Latin during the Middle Ages. Dionysus never drew a map and I'll bet you a dollar to a donut that the western ocean is not referred to as "Oceanus Atlanticus" in the Greek version of his hexameter poem if you can find the original. However, Ptolemy did draw a map of the world in 150AD and here it is:

Image

Notice that the name given to the western ocean is "Occidentalis Oceanus".
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Post by rich » Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:00 pm

All Occidentalis means is western or western world or in this case the western ocean looks like. But good point anyways.
i'm not lookin' for who or what made the earth - just who got me dizzy by makin it spin

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Post by Minimalist » Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:33 pm

Oddly enough, I have found a translation of Dionysius' writing. Unfortunately, it is in Google Books and can't be cut and pasted.

http://books.google.com/books?id=_6qF4v ... t#PPA26,M1


The set up is at the bottom of page 26...the pay off at the top of 27.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Post by rich » Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:56 pm

You owe him a "dollar to a doughnut" :D

Min - you can use the snipit tool on vista or you can get it for XP on the microsoft site for stuff like that if you run into the same kind of thing again. Doesn't save it as text but as a jpg file but it works :D http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/down ... rview.mspx

"dollar to a doughnut" - hmm - never heard of that one before!!!
i'm not lookin' for who or what made the earth - just who got me dizzy by makin it spin

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Post by Minimalist » Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:18 pm

One learns something every day, Rich.

I don't think it would be worth upgrading to Vista for that but XP is something else!
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Post by dannan14 » Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:44 pm

So what is that river system in the Dionysius map? Misplaced Niger or Congo? Or were there still rivers through the western Sahara two thousand years ago?

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Post by Minimalist » Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:24 pm

Carthaginians did explore down the west coast of Africa. My guess is the Congo but that is strictly a guess.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Atlantis

Post by Cognito » Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:18 pm

Aw crap, now I can't remember whether I wanted the dollar or the donut. :shock:

Just to continue my annoyance, here's a list of ancient authors who mentioned Atlantis:

http://www.atlantisquest.com/Timeline.html
Natural selection favors the paranoid

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