Doggerland.

The Old World is a reference to those parts of Earth known to Europeans before the voyages of Christopher Columbus; it includes Europe, Asia and Africa.

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Minimalist
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Post by Minimalist » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:08 pm

Got it.
Actual letter from someone who farms and writes well!




Roping A Deer


(Names have been removed to protect the UNEDUCATED!)




I had this idea that I was going to rope a deer, put it in a stall, feed it up on corn for a couple of weeks, then kill it and eat it.


The first step in this adventure was getting a deer. I figured that, since they congregate at my cattle feeder and do not seem to have much fear of me when we are there (a bold one will sometimes come right up and sniff at the bags of feed while I am in the back of the truck not 4 feet away), it should not be difficult to rope one, get up to it and toss a bag over its head (to calm it down) then hog tie it and transport it home.


I filled the cattle feeder then hid down at the end with my rope.


The cattle, having seen the roping thing before, stayed well back. They were not having any of it.


After about 20 minutes, my deer showed up -- 3 of them. I picked out....a likely looking one, stepped out from the end of the feeder, and threw... my rope. The deer just stood there and stared at me.

I wrapped the rope around my waist and twisted the end so I would have a good hold. The deer still just stood and stared at me, but you could tell it was mildly concerned about the whole rope situation.

I took a step towards it...it took a step away. I put a little tension on the rope and then received an education.

The first thing that I learned is that, while a deer may just stand there looking at you funny while you rope it, they are spurred to action when you start pulling on that rope.

That deer EXPLODED.

The second thing I learned is that pound for pound, a deer is a LOT stronger than a cow or a colt. A cow or a colt in that weight range I could fight down with a rope and with some dignity.

A deer-- no chance.

That thing ran and bucked and twisted and pulled. There was no controlling it and certainly no getting close to it. As it jerked me off my feet and started dragging me across the ground, it occurred to me that having a deer on a rope was not nearly as good an idea as I had originally imagined.


The only up side is that they do not have as much stamina as many other animals.


A brief 10 minutes later, it was tired and not nearly as quick to jerk me off my feet and drag me when I managed to get up. It took me a few minutes to realize this, since I was mostly blinded by the blood flowing out of the big gash in my head. At that point, I had lost my taste for corn-fed venison. I just wanted to get that devil creature off the end of that rope.


I figured if I just let it go with the rope hanging around its neck, it would likely die slow and painfully somewhere. At the time, there was no love at all between me and that deer. At that moment, I hated the thing, and I would venture a guess that the feeling was mutual.


Despite the gash in my head and the several large knots where I had cleverly arrested the deer's momentum by bracing my head against various large rocks as it dragged me across the ground, I could still think clearly enough to recognize that there was a small chance that I shared some tiny amount of responsibility for the situation we were in, so I didn't want the deer to have to suffer a slow death, so I managed to get it lined back up in between my truck and the feeder - a little trap I had set before hand...kind of like a squeeze chute.

I got it to back in there and I started moving up so I could get my rope back.

Did you know that deer bite? They do! I never in a million years would have thought that a deer would bite somebody, so I was very surprised when I reached up there to grab that rope and the deer grabbed hold of my wrist.


Now, when a deer bites you, it is not like being bit by a horse where they just bite you and then let go. A deer bites you and shakes its head --almost like a pit bull. They bite HARD and it hurts.

The proper thing to do when a deer bites you is probably to freeze and draw back slowly. I tried screaming and shaking instead. My method was ineffective. It seems like the deer was biting and shaking for several minutes, but it was likely only several seconds.

I, being smarter than a deer (though you may be questioning that claim by now), tricked it.

While I kept it busy tearing the tendons out of my right arm, I reached up with my left hand and pulled that rope loose. That was when I got my final lesson in deer behavior for the day.

Deer will strike at you with their front feet. They rear right up on their back feet and strike right about head and shoulder level, and their hooves are surprisingly sharp. I learned a long time ago that, when an animal -- like a horse --strikes at you with their hooves and you can't get away easily, the best thing to do is try to make a loud noise and make an aggressive move towards the animal. This will usually cause them to back down a bit so you can escape.

This was not a horse. This was a deer, so obviously, such trickery would not work. In the course of a millisecond, I devised a different strategy. I screamed like a woman and tried to turn and run.

The reason I had always been told NOT to try to turn and run from a horse that paws at you is that there is a good chance that it will hit you in the back of the head. Deer may not be so different from horses after all, besides being twice as strong and 3 times as evil, because the second I turned to run, it hit me right in the back of the head and knocked me down.

Now, when a deer paws at you and knocks you down, it does not immediately leave. I suspect it does not recognize that the danger has passed. What they do instead is paw your back and jump up and down on you while you are laying there crying like a little girl and covering your head.

I finally managed to crawl under the truck and the deer went away.

So now I know why when people go deer hunting they bring a rifle with a scope to sort of even the odds.

So how much bigger is a mammoth than a deer?
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

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Digit
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Post by Digit » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:14 pm

In other words Min a Deer on one end of the rope and fool on the other! :lol:

Roy.

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Post by Minimalist » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:31 pm

Pretty much.

I'm guessing that roping mammoths was not a strategy employed much, either.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

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Post by Digit » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:52 pm

Certainly not too often Min! :lol:
Ham stringing and spear thrust from underneath then stand back and wait for it to go down would be the safest IMO, or stand back and pepper it with as many spear wounds as possible till blood loss allows you in to finish it off.

Roy.

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Post by Minimalist » Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:25 pm

Even a great white shark will bite its victim and then back off till it stops thrashing. Makes sense to me.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

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Post by kbs2244 » Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:56 am

Isn't there a saying to the effect of
"Death by a thousand cuts"?
The "One shot, one kill" mentality is pretty new.

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Post by Digit » Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:16 am

Though we are all aware I think of just how sharp a Flint or Obsidian point can be KB I think we should also consider just how large a some species of Proboscidians could be.
An African Elephant might make four long tons, some mammoths could double that.
Even a modern high powered rifle would have problems stopping one of them, except with a brain shot.
So just how do you fell an eight ton beast that can also outrun you?
The thick skin on Elephants is to prevent them from 'exploding' under the pressure of their intestines. A female Elephant, for example, cannot be subjected to a Caesarean section for that reason. (Not a lot of people know that!) :lol:
Whether it would have been possible to take advantage of the animal's internal pressure without getting you self killed in the process I'm not sure, but with stone weapons that would seem to be the quickest solution, the only alternative would seem to have been to spear with as many spears as possible and await death from blood loss. That would also require an understanding of tactics 'cos after the first spear I wouldn't expect the animal to wait around!

Roy.

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Post by Minimalist » Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:21 am

No doubt, kb, but there are wounds and then there are wounds.

A wounded animal is dangerous and I suspect a wounded mammoth would be VERY dangerous.

I keep wondering how the actual mechanics of such an attack would go. Lions will try to isolate one individual out of a herd and the technique has worked well enough for lions. Suppose that several hunters got in front of one mammoth, poking at it, distracting it, while a couple of others got behind and went for the back legs. Stab for the muscles or tendons in the back legs and cripple the animal. At that point I would BACK OFF and let things take their course.

The more I think about it the less I think that stone tipped missile weapons would be terribly effective against a mammoth. As you say, kb, they would provide a couple of those thousand cuts, but would they penetrate the skin? Could you reliably get through the rib cage to hit a vital organ? Such wounds would piss it off. I don't know that pissing off a mammoth is a great way to ensure your future good health.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

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Post by annieo11 » Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:46 am

:lol: :lol: :lol: what a riot. that deer story is the funniest thing I have read in a long time. It must be how the first big game hunters started, letting their prey beat and drag them till they learned about what not to do. great tid bit on the female elephant dig. Still chuckling. annieo

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Post by Digit » Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:47 am

My reasoning word for word Min.

Roy.

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Post by Minimalist » Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:29 am

We were obviously typing away at the same time, Dig.

Right, Annie. I wouldn't think that early humans started on mammoths. Maybe ganging up on a rabbit or something for practice?

There is also an adage in military philosophy which goes like this:

"No plan of battle survives contact with the enemy." Thus, Dig's point about an understanding of "tactics" comes into play. Expecting the unexpected was paramount for ancient hunters and not only so they could eat....so they did not get killed in the process. Broken bones or internal injuries would have been serious.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

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Post by kbs2244 » Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:07 am

They only mammoth kill site I am familiar with is the one just north of me in Kenosha County, WI.
They found the remains while digging a drainage ditch for a swamp.
(Evidently, a pretty old swamp.)
It had been butchered from the top down, indicating it was trapped in the mud.
Were there any swamps in Doggerland?
Driving one into the mud seems a sound concept.
We know the pre horse American Indians drove bison over cliffs in the dry plains to accomplish the same end result.

“The thick skin on Elephants is to prevent them from 'exploding' under the pressure of their intestines. A female Elephant, for example, cannot be subjected to a Caesarean section for that reason. (Not a lot of people know that!)”

This is why I love this place!
Where else would a nugget like this just fall out of the sky?

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Post by Digit » Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:46 am

Plenty of swamps apparently KB, and a good choice for a kill, so I don't doubt that HSN and HSS would have used such a ploy. But I doubt that would have been applicable on Steppe lands where the sub soil would have been permafrost.
After all Mammoths were adapted for such terrain.
The more we delve into applicable methods the greater my admiration for those people who appear to have conducted such activities on a routine basis.
Rather them than me!

Roy.

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Post by kbs2244 » Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:26 pm

Reminds me of some kind of SiFi story read in my youth.
The hero gets nursed back to walking condition by a young boy after crashing on a primitive planet.
After the kid thinks he is able he decides to take him home.
After swinging from vines, rock wall climbing, walking behind water falls etc our hero thinks about telling the boy that his people really do not want to be easy to be found.
But then he has second thoughts when he realizes this route was a daily thing to the boy.
It wasn’t a hard trip.
It was just what you did at the start and end of a day.
(In another life I did the same thing for over an hour each way.)

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john
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Post by john » Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:11 pm

All -

I've been unable to find the source I want -

I first ran into this in the late fifties? maybe.

OK

Central African Pygmy tribes regularly and traditionally hunt elephant

With spears.

Successfully.

Now these folks are max 4'6" tall.

What I remember is this:

They hunt in heavy cover and throw spears from extremely close range.

If an opportunity presents itself, they will use the spear as a thrusting

Weapon. Also, it is very possible they use poison on their speartips,

As they do for their arrows.

Here's some cultural background

http://www.vancouver.wsu.edu/fac/hewlett/cultdiv.html

As I sd. not exactly what I was going after in terms of

The specifics of elephant hunting.

There are, however, a couple of other interesting ingredients, here.

Net hunting, or as I would call it, drive hunting.

In which a series of long nets are mounted, like a fishtrap (weir)

Or like the Plains Indian rockpile buffalo traps,

And the animals are chivvied into a steadily narrowing gap,

To be killed by weapon or forced over a cliff etc..

Secondly, there is plain and simple opportunity hunting by

One or two individuals moving very quietly.

Now, for the finale, Minimalist,

This is your next assignment............

http://lists.envirolink.org/pipermail/a ... 13377.html

Beats the hell out of roping deer.

hoka hey

john
"Man is a marvellous curiosity. When he is at his very, very best he is sort of a low-grade nickel-plated angel; at his worst he is unspeakable, unimaginable; and first and last and all the time he is a sarcasm."

Mark Twain

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