Jacob in Egypt

The Old World is a reference to those parts of Earth known to Europeans before the voyages of Christopher Columbus; it includes Europe, Asia and Africa.

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kbs2244
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Jacob in Egypt

Post by kbs2244 » Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:34 pm

It is kind of old news.
It was posted 9-25-2009 in the News section.

But I am surprised no one has talked about it.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? ... 2FShowFull

I would guess it has to be pretty strong evidence for the Egyptian authorities to not only allow it’s publication but to agree with it.

"A thorough examination revealed that the coins bore the year in which they were minted and their value, or effigies of the pharaohs [who ruled] at the time of their minting. Some of the coins are from the time when Joseph lived in Egypt, and bear his name and portrait."

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Re: Jacob in Egypt

Post by Minimalist » Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:35 pm

Discussed over at Jesus Never Existed.Com

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/ ... 5#msg17485


I stand by my comments, there.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

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Re: Jacob in Egypt

Post by Rokcet Scientist » Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:55 pm

So if you want to have a little fun with your progeny you mint a couple thousand coins with your profile and bury them in a few dozen places for them to dig up in 3 millennia... :lol:

Rokcet Scientist

Re: Jacob in Egypt

Post by Rokcet Scientist » Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:31 pm

"A thorough examination revealed that the coins bore the year in which they were minted
Which was when?
and their value, or effigies of the pharaohs [who ruled] at the time of their minting. Some of the coins are from the time when Joseph lived in Egypt, and bear his name and portrait."
Does that jive with the explosion of Thera?

BTW, why is this thread titled "Jacob in Egypt" when it's about Joseph?

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Re: Jacob in Egypt

Post by kbs2244 » Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:37 am

My embarrassing bad!

I got my "J"s" mixed.

Min:

I don't know about religious motivation.

If that was the case you would think they would let them sit in the basement rather than bring them out and admit to the historical existence of the Jews in Egypt.

You would think they would consider the historical origins of the Jews as a more important argument then the origins of coins.

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Re: Jacob in Egypt

Post by Minimalist » Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:03 am

It's in the Koran, kb. These people are as nutty as the worst xtian fundie.

Evidence of actual coins has them originating in Asia Minor around the 7th-8th century BC. Their usage for commerce spread from there. The fact that the OT includes such a detail is more support for the idea that ancient books tell us more about the life and times of the authors rather than the "history" they purport to describe.

This actually fits in quite well with Philip R. Davies' idea that the OT was a post-exilic production of the Persian dominated province of Yehud. By the time these stories were written, coins were part of everyday commerce even in a poverty stricken region like Yehud.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

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Re: Jacob in Egypt

Post by jw1815 » Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:16 pm

kbs2244 wrote:

you would think they would let them sit in the basement rather than bring them out and admit to the historical existence of the Jews in Egypt.

You would think they would consider the historical origins of the Jews as a more important argument then the origins of coins.
Muslims claim Abraham as ancestral to their faith, too. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Jacob's family are all part of Muslim lore as well being part of Jewish and Christian lore.

This "discovery" looks like the equivalent of Christians claiming to find the bones of one of the James apostles - I forget which one.

Ironically, considering relations between Jews and Muslims, the theme of the Joseph story is supposed to be forgiveness and brotherly love -- before that business about the slavery, of course.

Speaking of slavery, someone asked why there would be an image of a slave on a coin. According to the story, Joseph was sold by his brothers into slavery in Egypt, but after he correctly interpreted the Pharaoh's dream, he was made viceroy over Egypt as a reward, and Egypt prospered under him. His brothers came to Egypt for food during a famine and were reunited with him. The story says that their descendants became slaves when a different Pharaoh ruled.

So, for the pious, claiming to have Joseph's image on a coin is not only considered evidence that Egypt had coinage at an early date, but that Joseph really existed as viceroy of Egypt.

Just reporting what they believe, not what I believe, so don't shoot the messenger, please.


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Re: Jacob in Egypt

Post by Minimalist » Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:40 pm

E.P., I'm curious about one thing.

Is it your position that every event in human history is reliant on some rock falling from outer space?
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

Rokcet Scientist

Re: Jacob in Egypt

Post by Rokcet Scientist » Sat Oct 03, 2009 8:54 am

Minimalist wrote:E.P., I'm curious about one thing.

Is it your position that every event in human history is reliant on some rock falling from outer space?
Apparently.
Blinders kill debate, though...

E.P. Grondine

Re: Jacob in Egypt

Post by E.P. Grondine » Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:48 pm

Minimalist wrote:E.P., I'm curious about one thing.
Is it your position that every event in human history is reliant on some rock falling from outer space?
NO.

There's a reason why my book is "Man and Impact in the Americas" and not "Man and Impact in the Ancient Near East". Let me see if I can explain it to you:

The description of Comet Encke in 1628 BCE in Exodus may upset your religious views and your biblical text analysis. But then I don't care really care much about ancient Israel or the interplay of current Israeli archaeology and modern Israeli nationalism.

The ancient contemporaneous records and remains are what matters. Later texts are just what they are, later texts. When your biases interfere with working with both primary and secondary materials, and the field materials, and the geological materials, then you have a problem, not me.

As Tecumseh once said, trouble no one about their religion.

Before 1997 I had the opinion that Edward Teller et al. prattling on about the impact hazard were just some nuclear scientists looking for work. In 1997 I learned that impact was indeed a significant threat.

What I attempted to do from 1997 until 2005 was to determine the recent impact rate as accurately as possible for space planning purposes. What is at stake is the direction of the expenditure of hundreds of millions of dollars, and hundreds of millions of peoples lives.
This was not simply a theoretical exercise. You don't seem to understand this yet, but the next impact megatsunami will kill around 60,000,000; the next land impact say 1,000,000,000 by starvation. Their recent rate is 1 per 1,000 years. That's 60,000 per year for case one; 1,000,000 per year for case two. 7 tenths of the Earth is covered by water. You can work out rate of lives per hour.

Those peoples' lives are the only thing that makes dealing with this kind of crap almost daily worth it.

Tungsuka class events have recently been around 1 per 100 years. You can break that into lives per hour as well, and then add.

Comet and asteroid impacts are a major unconsidered factor which explain a lot of human history and behavior, as well as major parts of our evolution. In other words, impacts occurred and they were very very significant.

Impacts are also a terrific tool for chronological work as well. For example, all of the people on Malta died in 2,360 BCE, the same year as the Rio Cuarto impacts in Argentina.

The destruction of the "Minoan" armies by impact led to the end of LM1B, and set back civilization by 2 millenia or more. It was a 1-2 punch that took down the "Minoans": Thera, they were coping with, but then the impact...

The "Minoans" are gone, leaving one to deal with modern Greek, Turkish, Israeli, and Egyptian nationalism... along with everyone who has their career tied into alternative explanations...
Last edited by E.P. Grondine on Sat Oct 03, 2009 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

E.P. Grondine

Re: Jacob in Egypt

Post by E.P. Grondine » Sat Oct 03, 2009 2:07 pm

Rokcet Scientist wrote:
Minimalist wrote:E.P., I'm curious about one thing.

Is it your position that every event in human history is reliant on some rock falling from outer space?
Apparently.
Not hardly, RS. And it really does get really boring being Johnny one note on the effects of impacts, but then none of you seem able to handle them emotionally. For example:
Rokcet Scientist wrote: Blinders kill debate, though...
There's this big hole in the ground, the Zamanshin crater, which was caused by the Zamanshin impact. If your model of human evolution fails to account for its effects, then your model is defective.

While I was enjoying the debate on boats versus wading, neither accounted for Zamanshin. So what the hell I am supposed to do, work out the effects of the Zamanshin impact on both the boat and wading models? Or simply point out the fact to both parties, and hope that one at least one of them has the ability to handle reality?

It actually would be a pleasant relief to me if one of you were to have brought this up, so that I would not have had to.

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Re: Jacob in Egypt

Post by Digit » Sat Oct 03, 2009 2:16 pm

According to my research RS life threatening impacts are vastly more common than Toba type events, and you have been telling us about that event. :twisted:
Hat, coat, door!

Roy.
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt

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Re: Jacob in Egypt

Post by kbs2244 » Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:06 pm

“Muslims claim Abraham as ancestral to their faith, too. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Jacob's family are all part of Muslim lore as well being part of Jewish and Christian lore.”

My understanding is that this is partially true.

The Arab peoples (now predominately Muslim) do claim Abraham as there forefather.
But it is through Ishmael and Abrahams other sons from Keturah. (Genesis Chap. 25)
These people were busy as shepherds all through what is now Arabia, Syria, Iraq, and Iran while Isaac’s sons were in Egypt.

This is why the Jews that are careful to say they relate to Abraham via “Isaac and Jacob.”
They are very aware that Abraham has a lot of decedents other than via Isaac.

It is all a family fight that goes back to the split between Isaac and Ishmael.

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Re: Jacob in Egypt

Post by Digit » Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:32 pm

It is all a family fight that goes back to the split between Isaac and Ishmael.
Yep! and like the even more bitter split between Shite and Sunni.

Roy.
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt

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