Jacob in Egypt

The Old World is a reference to those parts of Earth known to Europeans before the voyages of Christopher Columbus; it includes Europe, Asia and Africa.

Moderators: Minimalist, MichelleH

kbs2244
Posts: 2472
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:47 pm

Re: Jacob in Egypt

Post by kbs2244 » Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:01 am

I did come across some possible evidence of some “tweaking” of the OT yesterday.
(I am in the midst of a project that requires a somewhat complete re-reading of the Penatuch.)

In Deuteronomy 4:20 is a mention of an “iron furnace” as a symbol of life in Egypt.

What was the time frame of the start of the Iron Age in Egypt?

If Deuteronomy was written originally in the 1500 to 1400 BC time frame did it pre-date the local Iron Age?

I also have a foggy recollection of later laws, after the settling in Canaan, regarding the need to trade with the Canaanites for buying and sharpening of iron ax heads.

To me this need would indicate the Jews did not yet have iron smelting technology even some time after the Exodus.

Or, maybe, they knew about it in Egypt but just couldn't do it?

Minimalist
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15712
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Jacob in Egypt

Post by Minimalist » Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:27 am

The iron age in Egypt is the same as for the rest of the Middle East, c 1200.


The question about Egypt is more interesting. In the course of reading it was noted that a main part of Egypt's inferiority vis-a-vis Assyria was that Egypt lacked timber resources to smelt iron, a problem which Assyria did not have.

It's an idea which bears a little thought because the same dynamic applies between Israel and Judah. Israel, being farther north, was a somewhat wetter climate and doubtless had more in the way of wood than Judah which was marginal desert/grassland. Finkelstein notes that climate played a large part in the fact that Israel was far wealthier than Judah although he never discusses that point, to the best of my recollection.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

E.P. Grondine

Re: Jacob in Egypt

Post by E.P. Grondine » Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:01 am

kbs2244 wrote:I did come across some possible evidence of some “tweaking” of the OT yesterday.
(I am in the midst of a project that requires a somewhat complete re-reading of the Penatuch.)

In Deuteronomy 4:20 is a mention of an “iron furnace” as a symbol of life in Egypt.

What was the time frame of the start of the Iron Age in Egypt?

If Deuteronomy was written originally in the 1500 to 1400 BC time frame did it pre-date the local Iron Age?

I also have a foggy recollection of later laws, after the settling in Canaan, regarding the need to trade with the Canaanites for buying and sharpening of iron ax heads.

To me this need would indicate the Jews did not yet have iron smelting technology even some time after the Exodus.

Or, maybe, they knew about it in Egypt but just couldn't do it?
min, you're on the right path, but you're forgetting meteoritic iron, and assuming that the furnace was a smelting furnace for working ores. See:
Note on Karen Reiter's "Die Metalle im Alten Orient":
An Essential Reference For Historical Work On Impact Events
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc020999.html

Minimalist
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15712
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Jacob in Egypt

Post by Minimalist » Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:29 am

I doubt that enough meteors fell in Egypt to equip an entire army with spear points, EP. Although I can buy the idea that they worshiped it.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

Rokcet Scientist

Re: Jacob in Egypt

Post by Rokcet Scientist » Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:04 am

Minimalist wrote:I doubt that enough meteors fell in Egypt to equip an entire army with spear points, EP. Although I can buy the idea that they worshiped it.
And if an entire army was equipped with spear points made from meteoric ore surely a few would have survived (unless it actually was inferior spear tip material; i.o.w. more bark than bite, or rather: ceremonial spear points). But we don't know of any (yet) though, do we?

Minimalist
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15712
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Jacob in Egypt

Post by Minimalist » Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:03 am

The earliest hoplite doru used bronze points which were gradually phased out in favor of cheaper iron over the centuries.

The depiction in 1 Samuel 17-5 of Goliath's armor is of an early hoplite warrior and is one of the anachronisms that Finkelstein uses as a basis for dating the writing of the story to the 7th century.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

E.P. Grondine

Re: Jacob in Egypt

Post by E.P. Grondine » Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:17 pm

Minimalist wrote:I doubt that enough meteors fell in Egypt to equip an entire army with spear points, EP. Although I can buy the idea that they worshiped it.
min, "meteors" are rice to pea grain sized pieces of comets, often know as "shooting stars".

"meteorites" are small pieces of comets and asteroids that manage to fall to the surface of the Earth or other planets.

"meteorites" accumulated in the Sahara desert, and it is an open question as to whether the Egyptians gathered them for weapons making.

Start with the work in the link I gave you. Also, if you google "wertime and grondine", you will get interesting results.

Minimalist
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15712
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Jacob in Egypt

Post by Minimalist » Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:35 pm

Some are decent sized...

Image
The largest meteorite discovered in Antarctica is about 2 feet by 2 feet by 1.5 feet.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

Forum Monk
Posts: 1999
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:37 pm
Location: USA

Re: Jacob in Egypt

Post by Forum Monk » Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:00 am

The majority of meteors are rocky chunks of debris, of which there are billions in the iner solar system. Many are perturbed from the asteroid belt. Comets are not the only source though meteor showers occur when we pass through the tail of a periodic comet. Most of those are various form of ice particles.

E.P. Grondine

Re: Jacob in Egypt

Post by E.P. Grondine » Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:39 pm

Forum Monk wrote:The majority of meteors are rocky chunks of debris, of which there are billions in the iner solar system. Many are perturbed from the asteroid belt. Comets are not the only source though meteor showers occur when we pass through the tail of a periodic comet. Most of those are various form of ice particles.
Hi FM, actually think about an "icy dirt ball" instead of a "dirty ice ball". Carbonaceous chondrites (comet meteorites) look like charcoal briquets. Google "Allende" to see examples.

By the way, when big comet fragments hit they do not evaporate, nor do they break into smaller impactors, nor do they turn into magic comet dust. The larger fragments have significant amounts of metal at their cores, hence the iridium signature at the KT boundary .

Post Reply