Throwing Things : HS Did; HN Didn't

The Old World is a reference to those parts of Earth known to Europeans before the voyages of Christopher Columbus; it includes Europe, Asia and Africa.

Moderators: Minimalist, MichelleH

uniface

Throwing Things : HS Did; HN Didn't

Post by uniface » Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:48 pm

Or, so they say.
Rhodes’ research calls on recent studies in the field of sports medicine that indicate that individuals who engage in habitual overhead throwing, like baseball pitchers, have increased humeral retroversion angles in their throwing arms and a greater degree of bilateral asymmetry in retroversion angles than do non-throwers.

In other words, if someone forcefully throws overhand a lot and from an early age—be it a spear or a baseball—it’s going to leave a signature on the throwing arm that won’t be seen on the non-throwing arm.

New research by Rhodes and Steven E. Churchill of Duke University published in the Journal of Human Evolution addresses the question of when human hunters added long-range projectile weapons (those thrown overhead) to their arsenal and whether this was a hunting method also employed by Neandertals of the time.

“We were able to use analyses of the humerus bone (upper limb) to show that early humans in Europe were possibly using projectile weapons as early as the Middle Upper Paleolithic period and that Neandertals did not have or habitually use this form of technology,” says Rhodes.
http://news.brynmawr.edu/?p=1477

Rokcet Scientist

Re: Throwing Things : HS Did; HN Didn't

Post by Rokcet Scientist » Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:06 pm

Sounds like reaching to me.

uniface

Re: Throwing Things : HS Did; HN Didn't

Post by uniface » Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:18 am

It isn't. Bodies adapt to the way they're used. My left shoulder is higher than my right from years of playing the violin, and I can still bring my left elbow past the midpoint of my chest, effortlessly. I can' get half that far with the right one. But I can hold the right elbow out horizontally for an hour without effort or strain -- left one, nada. The skeletons of English long-bowmen show a spinal torque from innumerable bow-drawings (same lady found that, I believe).

Minimalist
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15807
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Throwing Things : HS Did; HN Didn't

Post by Minimalist » Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:46 am

It's a question of degree, uni. In your case I can certainly see how playing a violin for hours on end would have a skeletal effect. A pitcher throwing 100 pitches every 5 days with a warm up day in between and normal workouts would certainly build up his arm. But how many times would they be throwing a spear? For that matter, the use of the atlatl would seem to alter the dynamics of the throwing motion.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

uniface

Re: Throwing Things : HS Did; HN Didn't

Post by uniface » Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:43 am

Start at somewhere around age four and count all the childhood (with a toy), adolescent and adult spear/atlatl throws in a lifetime -- for fun, for target practice, and in hunting. Probably analogous to your baseball pitcher.

User avatar
Digit
Posts: 6618
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:22 pm
Location: Wales, UK

Re: Throwing Things : HS Did; HN Didn't

Post by Digit » Mon Jan 11, 2010 12:57 pm

And if they were ambidextrous....?

Roy.
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt

uniface

Re: Throwing Things : HS Did; HN Didn't

Post by uniface » Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:30 pm

I don't think you read the account I linked to. Or, perhaps you were distracted. Habitual use changes physiogomy. No change = no habitual use.

Rokcet Scientist

Re: Throwing Things : HS Did; HN Didn't

Post by Rokcet Scientist » Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:53 pm

uniface wrote:It isn't. Bodies adapt to the way they're used. My left shoulder is higher than my right from years of playing the violin, and I can still bring my left elbow past the midpoint of my chest, effortlessly. I can' get half that far with the right one. But I can hold the right elbow out horizontally for an hour without effort or strain -- left one, nada.
So we had all better not play the violin or homo sapiens would go extinct...

I knew it! When I was 4 I got a real violin from my parents. But it had bad vibes, so I chucked it. Hence I'm still around!
:lol:

User avatar
Digit
Posts: 6618
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:22 pm
Location: Wales, UK

Re: Throwing Things : HS Did; HN Didn't

Post by Digit » Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:11 pm

If you meant me Uni I assure that I did. My point being that there would then be no asymetrical development.

Roy.
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt

uniface

Re: Throwing Things : HS Did; HN Didn't

Post by uniface » Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:01 pm

Rhodes’ research calls on recent studies in the field of sports medicine that indicate that individuals who engage in habitual overhead throwing, like baseball pitchers, have increased humeral retroversion angles in their throwing arms and a greater degree of bilateral asymmetry in retroversion angles than do non-throwers.

In other words, if someone forcefully throws overhand a lot and from an early age—be it a spear or a baseball—it’s going to leave a signature on the throwing arm that won’t be seen on the non-throwing arm.
Absent these -- in one or both arms -- throwing things isn't indicated.

(?)

User avatar
Digit
Posts: 6618
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:22 pm
Location: Wales, UK

Re: Throwing Things : HS Did; HN Didn't

Post by Digit » Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:10 pm

How would you detect equal development to both arms? Other primates can throw, why not HSN I wonder.

Roy.
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt

uniface

Re: Throwing Things : HS Did; HN Didn't

Post by uniface » Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:56 pm

I don't know. That's what she said, and she seems to know more about it than I do.

User avatar
Digit
Posts: 6618
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:22 pm
Location: Wales, UK

Re: Throwing Things : HS Did; HN Didn't

Post by Digit » Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:00 pm

I would have, as Min said, thought it depends on how much practise etc, even pro tennis players show little asymmetrical development, and frankly how much practise would you need to hit a Mastodon?
A Hare or similar, a heck of a lot I would say.

Roy.
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt

Minimalist
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15807
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Throwing Things : HS Did; HN Didn't

Post by Minimalist » Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:50 pm

uniface wrote:Start at somewhere around age four and count all the childhood (with a toy), adolescent and adult spear/atlatl throws in a lifetime -- for fun, for target practice, and in hunting. Probably analogous to your baseball pitcher.

I coached Little League baseball for 9 years and over the course of it probably threw 4000 innings worth of batting practice. My arm is shot as a result. (It isn't the bones that give out...it's the tendons.)
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

User avatar
Sam Salmon
Posts: 349
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 9:30 am
Location: Vancouver-by-the-Sea

Re: Throwing Things : HS Did; HN Didn't

Post by Sam Salmon » Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:58 pm

This thread is another Classic case here of the usual suspects pissing all over something then patting each other on the back for being so perceptive and thinking correctly.

If that isn't the textbook definition of a Club I don't know what is.

Post Reply