Update: Homer and Navigating by the Stars in Prehistory

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Samra
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Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 3:53 pm

Update: Homer and Navigating by the Stars in Prehistory

Post by Samra » Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:36 pm

Dear All,

The final version of my article on how the ancients could easily and accurately navigate across the Mediterranean Sea and beyond using the stars as indicators of latitude is now available.

Homer and Navigating by the Stars in Prehistory

It contains imagery that I think will be helpful to many and a customizable view of the stars/constellations for a day in each month (aligned with the solstices and equinoxes) in 1350 BC just as the ancient mariners would have seen them during "nautical" twilight just after sunset. This publication is now being used as a reference in several universities around the world. I want to thank everyone that participated in my previous discussion on this. Your comments were very helpful. Thanks to all and a very special thank you to Tiompan for his excellent contribution in assisting me in the creation of the star maps.

Very Best,
W. Sheppard Baird

uniface

Re: Update: Homer and Navigating by the Stars in Prehistory

Post by uniface » Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:35 pm

Thank YOU, WSB !

E.P. Grondine

Re: Update: Homer and Navigating by the Stars in Prehistory

Post by E.P. Grondine » Sun Mar 22, 2015 6:36 pm

Hi Sheppard,

If the date for the Thera eruption is still under discussion,
that is because Israeli archaeologists can not accept the demonstrated date.

The only thing to do is simply to ignore their "theories", while looking directly at the excavation data.

You may want to examine "griffin" iconography.

Aside from that, item 8 here may be of interest to you:

http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc041702.html

If you see David Packard or Dr. Brown, say hi to them for me.
I could use a nice laptop...


By the way, several pictographic script systems were used in the eastern North America by Native Peoples.
Last edited by E.P. Grondine on Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:27 am, edited 2 times in total.

Tiompan
Posts: 1140
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 5:13 am

Re: Update: Homer and Navigating by the Stars in Prehistory

Post by Tiompan » Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:11 am

I agve up after the first couple of paragraphs .
"These languages are
called Pre-Indo-European despite the fact that they were often nearly
unintelligible to later Indo-European speaking immigrants into these areas,"
The P in P.I.E. stands for Proto not Pre .
It is not a case of inteliliigibikity but the underlying similarities that connected the various languages described as indo euroopean .

"The range of these languages throughout Europe is known by
the recovery of morphemes from the family from Pict in Scotland. "
"Family from Pict " ?
The Picts were the inhabitants of north eastern Scotland in the Iron Age - Early Medieval period .
Apart from a few personal names and possible place names here are no surviving examples of the Pictish language , we simply don't know what language was spoken by the Picts and can only surmise that it was some form of P or Q Celtic .

E.P. Grondine

Re: Update: Homer and Navigating by the Stars in Prehistory

Post by E.P. Grondine » Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:07 am

Tiompan wrote: I gave up after the first couple of paragraphs .
"These languages are called Pre-Indo-European despite the fact that they were often nearly unintelligible to later Indo-European speaking immigrants into these areas,"
The P in P.I.E. stands for Proto not Pre .
It is not a case of intelligibility but the underlying similarities that connected the various languages described as indo euroopean .
You are being selective in your quoting. I also noted there:
"For none the less these languages show distant similarities to Indo-European"
Tiompan wrote: The P in P.I.E. stands for Proto not Pre
Whether the "P" stands for "Proto" or "Pre" depends upon who you are speaking with or reading.

With all due respect for Collin Renfrew's observations on migration in contrast to technology adoptions,
we now have very nice mt DNA maps for Europe.
Tiompan wrote: "The range of these languages throughout Europe is known by the recovery of morphemes from the family from Pict in Scotland. "
"Family from Pict " ?
Ahem. Good catch. That should have read:
'from the family of Pict in Scotland"

or better yet:
"from the mt DNA family of Pict in Scotland".

When I wrote that line I was probably exhausted from dealing with idiots.
Either that, or it was an early sign of diabetes or stroke.
Given your typos here, you may want to have yourself tested.

The important part is whether or not Sumerian can be used to "break" into the Harrapan script system.
Tiompan wrote: "The Picts were the inhabitants of north eastern Scotland in the Iron Age - Early Medieval period ."
Yes.
And before that as well.
Tiompan wrote: Apart from a few personal names and possible place names here are no surviving examples of the Pictish language , we simply don't know what language was spoken by the Picts and can only surmise that it was some form of P or Q Celtic .
You speak about that of which you know not.

Titles, kinship terms, and religious terms also survived long enough to be preserved by writing.

Tiompan
Posts: 1140
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 5:13 am

Re: Update: Homer and Navigating by the Stars in Prehistory

Post by Tiompan » Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:03 pm

Tiompan wrote: The P in P.I.E. stands for Proto not Pre
Whether the "P" stands for "Proto" or "Pre" depends upon who you are speaking with or reading.

No it doesn't ,the P in P.I.E. stands for Proto ,not Pre , not only are there two different meanings , anyone who says otherwise is simply wrong .
Tiompan wrote: "The range of these languages throughout Europe is known by the recovery of morphemes from the family from Pict in Scotland. "
"Family from Pict " ?
Ahem. Good catch. That should have read:
'from the family of Pict in Scotland"

or better yet:
"from the mt DNA family of Pict in Scotland".

It still doesn't make sense . For the reasons mentioned previously .
There is no single mt DNA haplotype that can be attributed to the Picts , anyone who says so selling you a romantic pig in a poke .
If you are thinking of the nonsense peddled by some DNA testing companies in relation to Y dna then they are equally misleading , e.g. if you think of R1b-S530 as being the marker for picts then think again , it is found in Wales , other suggestions like the 2Scot's modal " is also hugely problematic .
The Picts were simply the people who lived in north eastern Scotland ,so called by the Romans , not known by that among themselves or their contemporaneous neighbours .

Tiompan wrote: "The Picts were the inhabitants of north eastern Scotland in the Iron Age - Early Medieval period ."
Yes.
And before that as well.

Not true . See above , they were not known by that name until the Iron Age .Prior to that there were various tribal units /regions none with the name pict .
Tiompan wrote: Apart from a few personal names and possible place names here are no surviving examples of the Pictish language , we simply don't know what language was spoken by the Picts and can only surmise that it was some form of P or Q Celtic .
You speak about that of which you know not.

Titles, kinship terms, and religious terms also survived long enough to be preserved by writing.[/quote]

No ,you clearly don't know , there is nothing surviving from the language spoken by the picts apart from what I have mentioned i.e. some personal names and possible place names .The given names are known from other non pictish written sources , and the very small number of examples of non ogham writing is in latin ,not pictish .

E.P. Grondine

Re: Update: Homer and Navigating by the Stars in Prehistory

Post by E.P. Grondine » Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:09 pm

"Not true . See above , they were not known by that name until the Iron Age. Prior to that there were various tribal units /regions none with the name pict ."

You speak about that of which you know not.

Actually, Tiopan, Their own name for themelve was "Cruit", but given the fact that their phonology was non Indo-European, there were many variant spellings.

Titles, kinship terms, and religious terms also survived long enough to be preserved by writing.

"No ,you clearly don't know , there is nothing surviving from the language spoken by the picts apart from what I have mentioned i.e. some personal names and possible place names .The given names are known from other non pictish written sources , and the very small number of examples of non ogham writing is in latin ,not pict.'

Actually, Tiopan, other remains of their language may be found in Adomnan's Life of Saint Columba and other sub-roman documents.

Tiompan
Posts: 1140
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 5:13 am

Re: Update: Homer and Navigating by the Stars in Prehistory

Post by Tiompan » Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:56 am

[quote="E.P. Grondine"

]"Not true . See above , they were not known by that name until the Iron Age. Prior to that there were various tribal units /regions none with the name pict ."

You speak about that of which you know not.

Actually, Tiopan, Their own name for themelve was "Cruit", but given the fact that their phonology was non Indo-European, there were many variant spellings. [/quote]

Now that you appreciate you were talking nonsense about the P in PIE and the genetics there is alas yet further evidence that you don't know what you are talking about .
Cruit is lovely wee island off Donegal (pronounced Critch ) .
What you are thinking of is Cruithne , note that is not Pict , which as I pointed out was the Roman name for the loose confederation in northern and north east Scotland .
Cruithne is a gaelic word for the inhabitants of Scotland and Ireland and not specific to the picts .
The pictish language , given that it was more than likely P or Q Celtic was indo -european as was the phonology . Note the relationship between cruithne and priteni Pand Q terms for britain .

Titles, kinship terms, and religious terms also survived long enough to be preserved by writing.

"No ,you clearly don't know , there is nothing surviving from the language spoken by the picts apart from what I have mentioned i.e. some personal names and possible place names .The given names are known from other non pictish written sources , and the very small number of examples of non ogham writing is in latin ,not pict.'

[/quote] Actually, Tiopan, other remains of their language may be found in Adomnan's Life of Saint Columba and other sub-roman documents.[/quote]
Then why didn't you give us some examples ? ,apart from those I have already mentioned above .

E.P. Grondine

Re: Update: Homer and Navigating by the Stars in Prehistory

Post by E.P. Grondine » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:46 am

Tiompan wrote: "Not true . See above , they were not known by that name until the Iron Age. Prior to that there were various tribal units /regions none with the name pict ."

E.P. Grondine wrote: You speak about that of which you know not.

Actually, Tiompan, Their own name for themelves was "Cruit", but given the fact that their phonology was non Indo-European, there were many variant spellings.

Tiompan wrote: Now that you appreciate you were talking nonsense about the P in PIE and the genetics there is alas yet further evidence that you don't know what you are talking about .
Cruit is lovely wee island off Donegal (pronounced Critch ) .

What you are thinking of is Cruithne , note that is not Pict , which as I pointed out was the Roman name for the loose confederation in northern and north east Scotland .
Cruithne is a gaelic word for the inhabitants of Scotland and Ireland and not specific to the picts .

The pictish language , given that it was more than likely P or Q Celtic was indo -european as was the phonology . Note the relationship between cruithne and priteni Pand Q terms for britain .


In the primary sources, there are many spelling variants.
In addition to what was likely six vowels, 3 plus their aspirates, their stops are often confused by Indo-European scribes.
The spelling variants are similar to those seen when Linear B scribes transcribed Linear A terms.

"Pre" or "Proto", in all, it kind of reminds me of English speakers trying to transcribe Chinese.

Titles, kinship terms, and religious terms also survived long enough to be preserved by writing.
Tiompan wrote: "No ,you clearly don't know , there is nothing surviving from the language spoken by the picts apart from what I have mentioned i.e. some personal names and possible place names .The given names are known from other non pictish written sources , and the very small number of examples of non ogham writing is in latin, not pict.'

E.P. Grondine wrote: Actually, Tiopan, other remains of their language may be found in Adomnan's Life of Saint Columba and other sub-roman documents.

Tiompan wrote: Then why didn't you give us some examples ? ,apart from those I have already mentioned above .
Why should I?
I mean, is there any money in it for me?
A nice new car?
An iPad and an Mac notebook to put everything in e-book format so I can sell it to you?
Money for a nice trip to Crete to trowel through tsunami deposits?

Or more in regard to your own interests,
A lovely young colleen for very personal lessons in Irish for a couple of months at the Sir Richard Burton School of Language?
Along with a multiple tens of thousands of Euros to work through Irish proto-history?

All in ll, I'd rather be on sunny Crete drinking raki than in cold damp Ireland drinking whiskey.

Will it help improve the impact hazard estimates?
Will it save lives?
How many lives are you willing to pay for my time?
You have met your match, Tiompan:

side - tomb ritual complex.
mac, Mocu - kinship term.
O/U medial vowel proceeding tribal name - king of tribe, as in Eochoid Bhude, and other variants.
(by the way, EoChuit(+var) and EoChaid(+var) were different kings.)
tribal name+aka - tribal lands, as in Cruitahc(a)ta.
+te - locative

For an overview, see:
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/ce082202.html

You could contact me by PM and I'll tell you a little about my personal collection of artifacts from SW Scotland.
I shipped them back to the states as "geological specimens".
And the morality of perhaps selling them, and prices.
If the money is good enough, I might even tell you where I found them.

It appears that mot of the scholars who were working the borderlands died in the trenches during WW1.

As I am heading out to powwow, don't expect any immediate replies.

Tiompan
Posts: 1140
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 5:13 am

Re: Update: Homer and Navigating by the Stars in Prehistory

Post by Tiompan » Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:24 pm

Now that you realise your errors concerning P not standing for pre , the nonsense of the genetics claim, getting Cruit mixed up with Cruithne and not realising that it was inappropriate even if you had got it right . We now have the new additions showing the further errors .
E.P. Grondine wrote:[
In the primary sources, there are many spelling variants.

One of the most obvious facts in relation to the language spoken by the Picts is that there are no Pictish primary sources , if you knew anything about the subject you would have appreciated this .

E.P. Grondine wrote:[
"Pre" or "Proto", in all, it kind of reminds me of English speakers trying to transcribe Chinese.

No doubt to you ,regardless it is not pre but proto as anyone who knows anything about PIE will tell you . Such an basic error speaks volumes .
E.P. Grondine wrote:[
You have met your match, Tiompan:
Yes , your comments and mo thòin (look it up ).
E.P. Grondine wrote:[
side - tomb ritual complex.
mac, Mocu - kinship term.
You are confused . Sidhe is a gaelic world related to sith (fairy) and often used for a barrow /mound or tumulus i.e. fairy mound . It may have been used by the picts as they probably spoke P or Q celtic but we don't and there are no references to them having use it .
Similraly Mac is a gaelic word for son , the picys may have used it ,we don't know , if a gaelic scribe used it in relation to a pictish succession they were merely using their own language not necessarily the unknown Pictish language .
E.P. Grondine wrote:[
As I am heading out to powwow, don't expect any immediate replies.
That's covenient , I won't expect anything sensible , at any time .

E.P. Grondine

Re: Update: Homer and Navigating by the Stars in Prehistory

Post by E.P. Grondine » Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:19 am

Tiompan wrote: That's covenient , I won't expect anything sensible , at any time .
I'm used to holding my own views, Tiompan.
I long since learned that it comes with the territory.
How much sense they to you make usually depends upon your own level of competence.

I seem to have threatened your own world view here - grief and no money.
The effect of producing cognitive dissonance.

I'm pretty used to dealing with racial biases and different nationalistic biases. (mac, mocu)

I just leave it at PIE, as I do CE and BCE (where the "C" may stand for "Common" or "Christian').

I am used to dealing with people holding different religious systems as well. (side, sidhe).

I might suggest that you read Pallotimo on Etruscan, Brown on Linear A, and some introductory Lycian.

PS - this was done before my stroke, so please don't expect long detailed posts on these topics from from me.
I did it a well as I could, and make no apology.
If you want to discuss eastern North America, I do much better, as these materials were in a different part of my brain.

PS2 - As I have been wrong before, and I reserve the right to revise my thinking about anything at any time, except for my thoughts on really nasty absurdities.
Thus I try to keep it civil.

Tiompan
Posts: 1140
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 5:13 am

Re: Update: Homer and Navigating by the Stars in Prehistory

Post by Tiompan » Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:30 am

E.P. Grondine wrote:
I'm used to holding my own views, Tiompan.
Clearly ,even when they rae shown to be wrong .

[/quote]How much sense they to you make usually depends upon your own level of competence. [/quote]

And on your own which is is wanting .


[/quote]I seem to have threatened your own world view here [/quote]
Not at all .

[/quote]The effect of producing cognitive dissonance.[/quote]
The cogntive diossonace is highlightyted in how you managed to make so many erors in so little space .

[/quote]I'm pretty used to dealing with racial biases and different nationalistic biases. (mac, mocu)[/quote]
Which has nothing to do with the fact that neither have anything to do with non existent Pictisjh primary sources .

[/quote]I just leave it at PIE, as I do CE and BCE (where the "C" may stand for "Common" or "Christian').[/quote]

Two entirely siuations the P in PIE stands for Proto not Pre ,nobody who knows anything about the subject would make such a basic error .

[/quote]I am used to dealing with people holding different religious systems as well. (side, sidhe). [/quote]

Again you miss the point ,it has nothing to do with religion ,you got the spelling wrong ,again , of a gaelic word which you suggetsed was pictish with absolutley no basis .

[/quote]I might suggest that you read Pallotimo on Etruscan, Brown on Linear A, and some introductory Lycian.[/quote]
I suggest that you read the most basic texts about the subject in hand i.e. picts and the their language .


PS2 - As I have been wrong before, and I reserve the right to revise my thinking about anything at any time[/quote]
Now that makes sense .

kbs2244
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Re: Update: Homer and Navigating by the Stars in Prehistory

Post by kbs2244 » Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:07 pm

How die we get from Homer and ships to the Picts ??

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Sam Salmon
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Location: Vancouver-by-the-Sea

Re: Update: Homer and Navigating by the Stars in Prehistory

Post by Sam Salmon » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:53 pm

kbs2244 wrote:How did we get from Homer and ships to the Picts ??
For the most part selfishness, ignorance & boredom.

However once a person has felt the swell of the ocean under a wooden hull and seen the glory & wonder of the night sky laid out overhead they find it easy to leave petty squabbles behind.

kbs2244
Posts: 2472
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:47 pm

Re: Update: Homer and Navigating by the Stars in Prehistory

Post by kbs2244 » Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:46 pm

Well,
in my case ut was a pair of plastic hulls and Lake Michigan.

But the effect was the same.

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