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Archaeologica.org • View topic - Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

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Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby Tiompan » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:21 am

And yet another post full of abuse and no actual content .
If you can't understand it , then I am not surprised, given your logic .
If someone convicts themsleves with their own words , why can't you quote the words and prove how they might be convicting themselves ?
Odd , how by using quotes I have shown you to be wrong but you never manage to do the same . But you can certainly pretend to do so .
High rage , your wild imagination lets you down , yet again , just as your professed "experience and knowledge " did in the central issue .

The "we" are those who have to read your bile and lack of content . On the other hand the use of your "we" when enquired about was conveniently ignored , as ever .
e.g. "Who is "we" that were all wrong . I only said that the comment (which turned out to be your mangled effort ) was wrong ,another lie . "
Note , that was a quote showing where you got it wrong ,again .

In case you have forgotten here is the central issue ,the bit you got wrong and couldn't admit to , and tried to cover up , and are still attempting to do, with bluster .
Note, the following are not fantasy quotes .
" the first example we have of the Cross being used as a major symbol" is not only wrong but it was supposed to represent what Dr Moorehead had said in
"the crosses (probably of chinese silk ie majorly expensive) depicted on the Lullingstone frieze represent the largest and most public use of the symol (christian) so far found in the former empire. "
Caught red handed . Case closed .
Tiompan
 
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Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby E.P. Grondine » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:22 am

E.P. Grondine
 

Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby Simon21 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:52 am

Simon21
 
Posts: 518
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Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby Tiompan » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:53 am

Tiompan
 
Posts: 1140
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 5:13 am

Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby Tiompan » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:03 pm

You are pretty disturbed .

You ignore entirely anything that is said , you make up fantasy stuff and never back it up .

Quite simply , if I admitted that I lied ,where and when did that take place ? , do tell .
The fact that you won't be able to do so shows that it is actually you that is lying , can't you see that ?

The fact that you were shown to be wrong and a liar to boot , for the second time too , has tipped you over the edge from fantasy into something much darker .

I pointed out where you got it wrong ,using evidence .

Anytime you see me making a mistake do point it out , but with evidence not fantasy stuff .
Same for lies , feel free to to do so , but don''t lie yourself , you will only get found out .
Do you need reminding ?
Tiompan
 
Posts: 1140
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 5:13 am

Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby Simon21 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:06 pm

Last edited by Simon21 on Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Simon21
 
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Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby Simon21 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:23 pm

Simon21
 
Posts: 518
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:40 am

Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby Tiompan » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:42 pm

Yes I can understand that it doesn't make any sense to you .

Most people recognise the nuts and just stop interacting with them , I tend not to , expecting that reasonable logical argument , involving evidence will win out over nonsense .
Eventually it clicks ,I should behave like those who just ignore them .

You were shown to be wrong in the central issue , you got the info garbled and couldn't own up to it . You refuse to believe that which might upset your world view of others that you know nothing about ,which is basically the same as the other pathological problem about making stuff up .
You never support your claims with evidence and merely repeat them even when it is shown that you were wrong . That is one one of the classic signs .

All you have is abuse ,which probably stems from you being caught out doing exactly the same thing years ago i.e. getting it wrong, calling me a liar , not providing the evidence , then giving yourself away as the liar yourself . This caused you to leave with your tail between your legs and has probably had you seething ever since . It was only when the abuse started that I recognised the style . I'll not bother to read anymore of your evidence and meaningful content free posts on this thread .
The job was done long ago and there is nothing you could possibly say that will change the fact that you got it wrong .
Tiompan
 
Posts: 1140
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Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby Simon21 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:20 pm

Simon21
 
Posts: 518
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:40 am

Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby E.P. Grondine » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:49 pm

Hi Simon -

Any other inscriptions yet from this site?

"A nondescript patch of land 15 miles north of Dublin has shattered
one of Ireland's strongest myths. It indicates that the country was,
after all, invaded by Romans.

For centuries the Irish believed it never happened. While Britain
bent to the Roman yoke, the Irish were held to have lived in an
heroic Celtic twilight on the fringes of the Empire. There were no
references in classical literature to a Roman presence in Ireland and
any artifacts found were said to be imported.

Now archeologists have revealed one of the most exciting Roman
discoveries of the century. From beneath the soil at Drumanagh, clear
evidence of a Roman coastal fort of up to 40 acres.

The fort has been identified as a significant Roman beachhead, built
to support military campaigns in the 1st and 2nd centuries AD. It was
heavily defended and is believed to have developed into a big trading
town. Coins found at the site are stamped with the names of the
emperors Titus, Trajan and Hadrian, suggesting that Roman involvement
in Ireland lasted at least from AD79 to AD138. The location has been
known to a small group of archeologists and the National Museum of
Ireland for more than a decade but they kept it secret. Legal
difficulties surround the site, yet to be bought by the Irish
government from its private owner. Items including jewellry and
valuable ornaments are held at the museum in Dublin but have not
been put on private display.

Experts on the Roman period hailed the find this weekend. Barry
Cunliffe...described it as staggering."It is one of the most
important Roman sites in Europe and fits exactly with what Rome was
doing all along the frontiers of its Empire." Drumanagh is absolutely
crucial as it may explain the scatter of Roman material which has
been turned up in Ireland.

Barry Raftery,.. [UCD]..., said it was the most important find in
Ireland. He believes hundreds of people populated the fort in houses
densely packed into the enclosure.

Richard Warner [Ulster Museum] said excavation of the Drumanagh
sitie would be the most significant for any period in Irish history.

Experts link the discovery to smaller finds which indicate that a
large area of Ireland's east coast was under heavy Roman influence.
For Warner and other archeologists a full excavation of the Drmanagh
site will provide the answers to a mystery that has endured for
nearly 2000 years."

"The site reminds me very much of one I worked on as an undergraduate
during my summer vacation in 1987, near Nairn in Scotland. If people
are interested I'll keep you posted.

Gervase Phillips.
Manchester Metropolitan University."
E.P. Grondine
 

Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby E.P. Grondine » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:56 pm

Here's another one -

Dig near Dumfries unearths Roman Army artefacts
Posted by TANN ArchaeoHeritage, Archaeology, Breakingnews, Europe, UK, Western Europe 6:00 PM

Archaeological investigations near Dumfries have unearthed artefacts relating to the Roman Army's occupation of southern Scotland.

A javelin head was among the items discovered
[Credit: Guard Archaeology]
The discoveries include an iron javelin head, the remains of a Roman boot, samian pottery and tile fragments.

They were found at Wellington Bridge near Kirkton during Scottish Water works to lay a new mains in the area.

Simon Brassey, of its environmental engineering team, said the items dated back more than 1,850 years.
"It is fascinating for everyone involved to make this kind of discovery when working on a project such as the laying of new pipes," he added.

Warren Bailie, of GUARD Archaeology which carried out the excavation, said the artefacts added to evidence found in 1939 during an earlier dig.

It first revealed that Carzield Roman fort had been built in the area during the Roman campaign of the second century AD.
"The new artefacts provide additional insight into the Roman Army's occupation of southern Scotland," he said.

"For just as modern day military bases often have a huge range of imported resources and supplies - including shops and fast food outlets - Roman forts in southern Scotland during the second century AD were not so very different."

Tiles are thought to show some kind of heating system or bath existed at the
Roman fort site [Credit: Guard Archaeology]
One of the most striking artefacts was an iron javelin head with part of its wooden shaft still evident.

While badly corroded and broken - perhaps due to having seen action - it is believed to be hard evidence for the military character of the Roman occupation.

Mr Baillie added that the finds showed the "long supply chain" that enabled Roman troops to garrison some of the "northernmost reaches of the Roman Empire" at the time.

"Shards of samian pottery from Roman Gaul, recovered by our team, show that at least some of the soldiers, perhaps the garrison's officers, had fine tableware at their disposal," he said.

He said tile fragments also showed that a bath house or some kind of central heating system had operated on the site.

Evidence of wheat was also recovered which Mr Baillie said indicated that food supplies for the Roman garrison were not being requisitioned from the local populace but were supplied from the Roman provinces to the south.

"In fact, one of the Roman forts a few miles to the east of Carzield, at Birrens near Middlebie, was called Blatobulgium by the Romans, meaning the 'flour sack', and held three granaries which indicate it was probably used as a supply depot for other Roman forts in the region," he added.

The full results of the archaeological discoveries has just been published in the Transactions of the Dumfriesshire and Galloway Natural History and Antiquarian Society.
E.P. Grondine
 

Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby Simon21 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:20 pm

Simon21
 
Posts: 518
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Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby Simon21 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:31 pm

Simon21
 
Posts: 518
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:40 am

Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby E.P. Grondine » Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:54 pm

Archaeological research at a site in Galloway has suggested it may have been at the heart of a "lost kingdom" from the Dark Ages.

Ronan Toolis led the excavation works at Trusty's Hill Fort at Gatehouse of Fleet.

It unearthed evidence that it might have been the royal seat of the sixth century kingdom of Rheged.

Mr Toolis said it was "pre-eminent among the kingdoms of the north" at that time.

The location of Rheged had previously been thought by many historians to be in Cumbria.

However, Dr Christopher Bowles, co-director of the excavation work in Dumfries and Galloway, said that may not have been the case.
Archaeologists believe the royal seat of Rheged may have been in Galloway

"The new archaeological evidence from Trusty's Hill enhances our perception of power, politics, economy and culture at a time when the foundations for the kingdoms of Scotland, England, and Wales were being laid," he said.

"The 2012 excavations show that Trusty's Hill was likely the royal seat of Rheged, a kingdom that had Galloway as its heartland.

"This was a place of religious, cultural and political innovation whose contribution to culture in Scotland has perhaps not been given due recognition."

Dr Bowles said the influence of the kingdom had "rippled through the history and literature of Scotland and beyond".

Mr Toolis added that they had not been looking for Rheged when they started the excavations.
The excavation found evidence the area had been a royal stronghold

"What drew us to Trusty's Hill were Pictish symbols carved on to bedrock here, which are unique in this region and far to the south of where Pictish carvings are normally found," said Mr Toolis.

"The Galloway Picts Project was launched in 2012 to recover evidence for the archaeological context of these carvings.

"But far from validating the existence of Galloway Picts, the archaeological context revealed by our excavation instead indicates the carvings relate to a royal stronghold and place of inauguration for the local Britons of Galloway around AD 600.

"The new archaeological evidence suggests that Galloway may have been the heart of the lost Dark Age kingdom of Rheged,
a kingdom that was in the late sixth century pre-eminent amongst the kingdoms of the north."

The two men have produced a new book which details their findings.
E.P. Grondine
 

Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby E.P. Grondine » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:00 pm

Archaeological research has just been published which reveals new evidence for vitrified hillforts and warfare in early medieval Scotland. The excavation of Trusty’s Hill, which lies in Galloway in south-west Scotland, revealed that in the early seventh century AD this hillfort was deliberately destroyed and subjected to such sustained burning that the timber-laced stone rampart circling its summit was vitrified.

Nucleated Fort layout of Trusty’s Hill.

‘Our excavation of Trusty’s Hill revealed all the hallmarks of an early medieval royal site,’ said Ronan Toolis of GUARD Archaeology, who led the 2012 excavation. ‘The layout of this hillfort, comprising a fortified summit with supplementary defences and enclosures along its lower-lying slopes, is recognisable as a nucleated fort, a type of fort that has been recognised in Scotland as a form of high status secular settlement of the early medieval period. E-ware pottery indicates that the household here were part of a trade network that linked western Britain with Ireland and Continental Europe. The household were also patrons of a workshop within a part of the site here that was producing high status metalwork of gold, silver, bronze and iron. And the summit was approached via a ritualised entranceway defined by Pictish carvings on one side and a large rock-cut basin on the other. The material culture and layout of Trusty’s Hill is so closely similar to other early medieval royal sites in Scotland that there is little doubt now that Trusty’s Hill was once a royal stronghold of the Britons of south-west Scotland. The vitrification of the ramparts coincides with the destruction of the interior of the site and the end of the occupation of this hillfort.’

Image

IMPORTANT - The distribution of E ware pottery imports from France, including that found at Trusty’s Hill (size of symbol proportional to number of vessels) demonstrate that Gaulish merchants were making a beeline for the Galloway coast during the sixth and early seventh centuries AD.

[Yep - straight from BAZAS. Let's see 2018-2003 = a mere 15 years]

Experiments have shown that vitrification – the melting and fusing together – of stone ramparts took substantial man-power, timber resources for added fuel, experience, skill, and a great deal of time to accomplish. The evidence from empirical experiments and from a range of archaeological sites demonstrates that this was a destructive not a creative process, and deliberate not accidental. Often it was incomplete and coincided with the abandonment of a site, but crucially it always coincides with the burning of a timber-laced rampart core. The act of vitrification depended on pulling down the stone facing of a rampart to expose the core, continually piling a considerable amount of timber and brushwood against individual timbers of the internal framework, and setting fire to these with a favourable wind. Assuming the burning of ramparts was symbolically hostile destruction, the implication is that a fort had to be overrun by an invading force to allow sufficient access and time to achieve a fully vitrified rampart. Indeed, the high visibility of this act may have been more important than the actual destruction of the ramparts themselves. It has been observed during modern experimentation that the sight of a timber-laced rampart in the process of vitrification ‘edged by flames and glowing red in the night’ for weeks or even months was a spectacular advertisement of aggressive power.

The evidence from Trusty’s Hill consistently upholds these previous observations. The excavation revealed that the unheated outer and inner stone faces of the summit rampart were toppled separately prior to the burning of the rubble core. The likeliest explanation is that these were intentionally pulled down in order to expose the rampart core and its timber sub-structure for ease of access and to allow oxygen to fan the flames. Moreover, the entire circuit of the summit rampart was vitrified. The rampart core was not reduced to a single fused mass however but rather discontinuous concentrations of vitrified stone indicating individual fires around timber uprights. Given the substantial number of timbers within the rampart core, it is likely that each upright may have required individual attention in order to fully destroy the fortification. Where the rampart core was exposed, the position of the upright timbers was marked by post-voids ringed by a concentration of vitrified stone, which mirrors the negative timber slots encountered in other vitrified forts in Scotland and providing evidence for in situ burning rather than the incorporation of vitrified material from elsewhere.

Anglo-saxon style bronze jewellery from Trusty’s Hill. Analysis showed that this was originally gilded and silvered and made of leaded brass quite distinct to the leaded bronze objects being made at the workshop here. It was probably brought to this site as loot.

It was also evident that dark soil deposits, that abutted the interior edge of the rampart and which contained an abundance of occupation material, sealed the collapsed unburnt stone interior face of the rampart but were themselves sealed by the collapsed vitrified rubble core of the rampart. Stratigraphically this must represent the accumulation of occupation detritus during the destruction of the summit and its enclosing ramparts. This is borne out by the soil micromorphology analysis that indicated the dark soil resulted from a wet, actively churned, trampled and lightly vegetated occupation deposit. The occurrence of similarly composed dark soil deposits on each side of the summit indicates a prolonged phase of destruction across the entire site.


Reconstruction of the royal stronghold atop Trusty’s Hill as it may have appeared c. AD 600. © DGNHAS / GUARD Archaeology Ltd.
The evidence from Trusty’s Hill points to a sustained and co-ordinated effort to eradicate the fort. While it is beyond reasonable dispute that vitrified ramparts are the result of deliberate arson, there is some debate about whether this deliberate destruction simply marks the self-inflicted ritualised abandonment of a site. However, there are repeated references to the besieging and destruction of forts by fire in Scotland in a variety of annals from the seventh century AD onwards. The consensus is that vitrified ramparts are the result of punitive destruction after the capture and pillaging of a hillfort, in order to permanently raze it in a spectacular exhibition of power. This process of violent destruction serves to underline the defensive character of the ramparts enclosing Trusty’s Hill and which, together with the numerous slingstones recovered from the site, testifies that there was a tangible threat to defend against.

It is doubtful, however, that the destruction of Trusty’s Hill was merely the consequence of a local neighbourly dispute. The magnitude of resources required to achieve such destruction is such that vitrified ramparts are one of the most compelling forms of evidence for warfare during this period in Scotland. The level of co-ordinated and prolonged destruction to raze Trusty’s Hill intrinsically reflects the status that the fort and its household once held. It was clearly important to devote substantial and valuable resources to its destruction in order to present a fiery spectacle that lasted days if not weeks and was visible for miles around. This was not just destruction but a menacing political statement.

Image

Redrawing the map of Dark Age Britain. The discovery of a royal stronghold at Trusty’s Hill suggests that the core of the kingdom of Rheged lay within Galloway.

For it is possible that the destruction of Trusty’s Hill was not an isolated affair. The destruction of Trusty’s Hill in the early seventh century AD is comparatively close chronologically to the destruction of the Mote of Mark, another vitrified fort further along the Galloway coast, where occupation was also abruptly curtailed. Given their morphological similarity to Trusty’s Hill, it is entirely plausible that the remaining cluster of vitrified forts in central Galloway were also destroyed around this same period. This raises the distinct possibility that their destruction resulted from a prolonged campaign or series of campaigns of violent subjugation of the region rather than entirely unrelated incidents.

While Pictish raiders have been previously suggested as responsible for the destruction of Trusty’s Hill, as well as for the Pictish symbols at the site, the identification of local Britons as the principal hand behind the carvings similarly removes any particular focus on the Picts having any compelling relationship to the site’s demise. There is plenty of evidence for other likely parties. Aggression by various groups in northern Britain is certainly attested during this period. However, it was over the course of the seventh century AD that the kings of Northumbria conquered and made tributary the British kingdoms of the north, including Galloway. Interestingly, all of the vitrified forts in central Galloway lie within or very close to parishes where clusters of early Anglian settlement can be discerned from place-name evidence indicating not only a political, but also an attempted cultural purge around the middle of the seventh century AD.

While there is some evidence that the Northumbrian possession of Galloway was at least in part a relatively peaceable affair, such as the Northumbrian appropriation of the early Christian monastic sites at Whithorn and Ardwall Isle, the vitrified ramparts of Trusty’s Hill and the Mote of Mark corroborate the testimonies of the Historia Ecclesiastica and the Life of Wilfrid in demonstrating that the dominance of Northumbria was also achieved in no small measure through the violent overthrow and subjugation of the native British ruling elite. It is worth noting that one Anglian noble, perhaps King Ida of Bernicia, was known to his British enemies as Fflamddwyn, meaning ‘the Flame-Bearer’.

The deliberate and spectacular destruction of Trusty’s Hill is a visceral reminder that its demise came with sword and flame.

The Lost Dark Age Kingdom of Rheged: the Discovery of a Royal Stronghold at Trusty’s Hill, Galloway by Ronan Toolis and Christopher Bowles is published by Oxbow Books.

The Galloway Picts Project was supported by the Dumfriesshire and Galloway Natural History and Antiquarian Society, the Heritage Lottery Fund, the Society of Antiquaries of Scotland, GUARD Archaeology Ltd, the Mouswald Trust, the Hunter Archaeological & Historical Trust, the Strathmartine Trust, the Gatehouse Development Initiative, the John Younger Trust, the Galloway Preservation Society and Historic Environment Scotland.
E.P. Grondine
 

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