Luwian notes

The Old World is a reference to those parts of Earth known to Europeans before the voyages of Christopher Columbus; it includes Europe, Asia and Africa.

Moderators: Minimalist, MichelleH

Re: Luwian notes

Postby kbs2244 » Wed May 16, 2018 1:04 pm

So you are saying that the disruption of the Atlantic Conveyor along the west edge of the North Atlantic affected a far Eastern Mediterranean Sea government?
kbs2244
 
Posts: 2421
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:47 pm

Re: Luwian notes

Postby Simon21 » Thu May 17, 2018 5:21 pm

E.P. Grondine wrote:The full passage from the Aeneid:

“So crying, she filled all the house with moaning; when a sudden portent appears, wondrous to tell. For between the hands and faces of his ad parents, from above the head of Iulus a light tongue of flame was seen to shed a gleam and, harmless in its touch, lick his soft locks and pasture round his temples. Trembling with alarm, we quickly shake out the blazing hair and quench with water the holy fires. But my father Anchises joyously raises his eyes to the skies and uplifts to heaven hands and voice: ‘Almighty Jupiter, if you are moved by any prayers, look upon us – this only do I ask – and if our goodness earn it, give us your aid, Father, and ratify this omen!’

[692] “Scarcely had the aged man thus spoken, when with sudden crash there was thunder on the left and a star shot from heaven, gliding through the darkness, and drawing a fiery trail amid a flood of light. We watch it glide over the palace roof and bury in Ida’s forest the splendour that marked its path; then the long-drawn furrow shines, and far and wide all about reeks of sulphur. At this, indeed, my father was overcome and, rising to his feet, salutes the gods, and worships the holy star. ‘Now, now there is no delay; I follow, and where you lead, there am I. Gods of my fathers! save my house, save my grandson. Yours is this omen, and under your protection stands Troy. Yes, I yield, and refuse not, my son, to go in your company.’ He ceased, and now through the city more loudly is heard the blaze, and nearer the flames roll their fiery flood. ‘Come then, dear father, mount upon my neck; on my own shoulders I will support you, and this task will not weigh me down. However things may fall, we two will have on common peril, one salvation. Let little Iulus come with me, and let my wife follow our steps at a distance. You servants, heed what I say. As one leaves the city, there is a mound and ancient temple of forlorn Ceres, with an old cypress hard by, saved for many years by the reverence of our fathers. To this one spot we will come from different directions. Father, take in your arms the sacred emblems of our country’s household gods; for me, fresh from fierce battle and recent slaughter, it would be sinful to handle them until I have washed myself clean in running water . . . ‘ So I spoke, and over my broad shoulders and bowed neck I spread the cover of a tawny lion’s pelt and stoop to the burden. Little Iulus clasps his hand in mine, and follows his father with steps that match not his. Behind comes my wife. We pass on amid the shadows; and I, whom of late no shower of missiles could move nor any Greeks thronging in opposing mass, now am affrighted by every breeze and startled by every sound, tremulous as I am and fearing alike for my companion and my burden."

Mount Ida: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Ida
Mount Ida, Anatolia
Main article: Mount Ida (Turkey)
See also: Iliad, Aeneid, Sibylline Books, and Cybele

From the Anatolian Mount Ida, Zeus was said to have abducted Ganymede to Olympus. The topmost peak is Gargarus, mentioned in the Iliad. Zeus was located in the Altar of Zeus (near Adatepe, Ayvacık) during the Trojan War. The modern Turkish name for Mount Ida, Turkey, is Kaz Dağı, pronounced [kaz daːɯ]. In the Aeneid, a shooting star falls onto the mountain in answer to the prayer of Anchises to Jupiter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Ida_(Turkey)

Image
Cultic significance
Cybele

In ancient times, the mountain was dedicated to the worship of Cybele, who at Rome therefore was given the epithet Idaea Mater.
Sibylline books

The oldest collection of Sibylline utterances, the Sibylline Books, appears to have been made about the time of Cyrus at Gergis on Mount Ida; it was attributed to the Hellespontine Sibyl and was preserved in the temple of Apollo at Gergis. From Gergis the collection passed to Erythrae, where it became famous as the oracles of the Erythraean Sibyl. It seems to have been this very collection, or so it would appear, which found its way to Cumae (see the Cumaean Sibyl) and from Cumae to Rome.
Mythology

Mount Ida owes much of its fame to the work of the poet Homer, gaining renown from having been mentioned in his epic poem the Iliad. It is the setting for numerous episodes in Ancient Greek myth.
Idaea

Idaea was a nymph, mate of the river god Scamander, and mother of King Teucer the Trojan king.
The Scamander River flowed from Mount Ida across the plain beneath the city of Troy, and joined the Hellespont north of the city.

Ganymede

At an earlier time, on Mount Ida, Ganymede, the son of Tros or perhaps of Laomedon, both kings of Troy,
was desired by Zeus, who descended in the form of an eagle and swept up Ganymede, to be cupbearer to the Olympian gods.

Paris

On the sacred mountain, the nymphs who were the daughter-spirits of the river Cebrenus, had their haunt,
and one, Oenone, who had the chthonic gifts of prophetic vision and the curative powers of herb magic, wed Paris, living as a shepherd on Mount Ida. Unbeknownst to all, even to himself, Paris was the son of Priam, king of Troy.
He was there on Mount Ida, experiencing the rustic education in exile of many heroes of Greek mythology,
for his disastrous future effect on Troy was foretold at his birth,
and Priam had him exposed on the sacred slopes.
When the good shepherd who was entrusted with the baby returned to bury the exposed child,
he discovered that he had been suckled by a she-bear (a totem animal of the archaic goddess Artemis)
and took the child home to be foster-nursed by his wife.

When Eris ("discord") cast the Apple of Discord, inscribed "for the fairest",
into the wedding festivities of Peleus with Thetis,
three great goddesses repaired to Mount Ida to be appraised.
By a sacred spring on the mountainside, in "the Judgment of Paris",
the grown youth Paris awarded it to Aphrodite,
who offered Helen for a bribe,
earning the perpetual enmity of the discredited goddesses Hera and Athena to the Trojan cause (Bibliotheca 3.12.5).

Anchises

Anchises, father of Aeneas, also of the Trojan royal house,
was tending sheep on Mount Ida when he was seduced by Aphrodite.
Their union led to the birth of Aeneas,
the mythological progenitor of Rome's Julio-Claudian dynasty and a founder of Rome in a tradition alternative to that of Romulus and Remus.

Trojan War

The mountain is the scene of several mythic events in the works of Homer.
At its summit, the Olympian gods gathered to watch the progress of the epic fight.
But the mountain was the sacred place of the Goddess, and Hera's powers were so magnified on Mount Ida, that she was able to distract Zeus with her seductions, just long enough to permit Poseidon to intercede on behalf of the Argives to drive Hektor and the Trojans back from the ships.

During the Trojan War, in an episode recorded in Epitome of the fourth book of the Bibliotheca,
Achilles with some of the Achaean chiefs laid waste the countryside,
and made his way to Ida to rustle the cattle of Aeneas.
But Aeneas fled, and Achilles killed the cowherds and Mestor, son of Priam, and drove away the sacred kine (Epitome 3.32).
Achilles briefly refers to this incident as he prepares to duel with Aeneas during the siege of Troy. (Iliad XX)

After the Trojan War, the only surviving son of Priam, Helenus,
retired to Mount Ida, where he was surprised and became the captive of Neoptolemus.
In the Aeneid a shooting star falls onto the mountain in answer to the prayer of Anchises to Jupiter.

Oh joy - "Iulus" and "neo-Ptrolemus"


Was not the Aneid is written in Latin? So this is not an actual quote
Simon21
 
Posts: 490
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:40 am

Re: Luwian notes

Postby E.P. Grondine » Fri May 18, 2018 3:37 am

kbs2244 wrote:So you are saying that the disruption of the Atlantic Conveyor along the west edge of the North Atlantic affected a far Eastern Mediterranean Sea government?


What the authors of this paper said was that there was a climate collapse in Greece.

What I said earlier was that it appears that a large impact in the Atlantic Ocean led to the disruption of the Atlantic Conveyor, which in turn led to a climate collapse in Anatolia.

This new research appears to confirm my earlier conclusion.
Last edited by E.P. Grondine on Fri May 18, 2018 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
E.P. Grondine
 

Re: Luwian notes

Postby E.P. Grondine » Fri May 18, 2018 3:40 am

simon wrote:Was not the Aneid is written in Latin? So this is not an actual quote


The quote of 692 et seq ends at the final quotation mark and with the reference to wikipedia.
E.P. Grondine
 

Re: Luwian notes

Postby Simon21 » Fri May 18, 2018 9:37 am

E.P. Grondine wrote:
simon wrote:Was not the Aneid is written in Latin? So this is not an actual quote


The quote of 692 et seq ends at the final quotation mark and with the reference to wikipedia.


So my point stands? Quoting Latin poetry (particularly Virgil a poetic genius) is of very limited value.
Simon21
 
Posts: 490
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:40 am

Re: Luwian notes

Postby E.P. Grondine » Sun May 20, 2018 10:09 am

Simon -

Virgil could write nothing that brought about a suspension of disbelief in his audience -
in other words, whatever he wrote had to agree with what was common knowledge at that time.
E.P. Grondine
 

Previous

Return to Old World

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron