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Archaeologica.org • View topic - Roman DNA

Roman DNA

The Old World is a reference to those parts of Earth known to Europeans before the voyages of Christopher Columbus; it includes Europe, Asia and Africa.

Moderators: Minimalist, MichelleH

Re: Roman DNA

Postby Minimalist » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:05 pm

I'll see if I can post an excerpt.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Re: Roman DNA

Postby Minimalist » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:50 pm

Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Re: Roman DNA

Postby Simon21 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:32 am

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Re: Roman DNA

Postby Minimalist » Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:23 am

People also have no appreciation of history.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Re: Roman DNA

Postby E.P. Grondine » Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:55 pm

I've finished off another guidebook to some of the remains here in Ohio,
so I get to kick back for a couple of days...

Image

What is of very great interest is locating of the workshop for the gold work found in the Anglo Saxon hoards.
Finding hoards with limited dating is one thing, but if one could find the workshop...

The Coptic interlace, the enamel work, the crenelation, the Pictish symbols, the Irish? gold, etc.,
Finding that workshop is THE KEY, in my opinion.

One could try to locate that workshop by working back through the raids that led to the hoards,
and then trying to find some points of intersection,
but that would have to fully use the sea trade AND THE SEA RAIDS which clearly took place.

With the find of the Staffordshire Hoard,
activity will now focus on sorting out the history of Mercia.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... -true.html

By the way, that find spot will have to be very very carefully re-excavated using very very fine soil sifting to recover the inlays:

Image

Should that hoard be displayed at the British Museum,
with second copies of restored reproductions displayed locally?

The work on the Kingdom of Mercia will lead to work on the history of Rheged.
You have the Pict motifs and the Christian motifs..

Pict motifs from inscribed stones:
Image
An overview of the current work on the analysis of Pict motifs:
http://textualities.net/graeme-cruicksh ... sh-studies

I think someplace in SW Scotland,
some place with a very long tradition of metal working.
But then the beaches of Crete beckon...

Some place name work:
Image
(Note the "irish Sea" metalwork distribution shown on this map. Not from hoards?)

also
Image

Perhaps just to the north, along the road that followed that geological cleft.
Image
slightly different:
Image
say Girvan, perhaps, but certainly someplace nearby

Another line of attack may be through archaeological work around the Irish gold deposits.
Then perhaps you could get to the related ports,
and there...

Or was it Spanish gold deposits,
with the gold coming up though that trade route to France mentioned earlier?

Gaul E pottery distribution:
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3640&p=75378&hilit=french+pottery#p7537

Image

That would be my line of attack on the problem using directed research.
Once you have all that, you could work through the documents and sort out the imperial and religious problems in detail.
I don't know if trying to do text analysis first using imperial and church records is the best method of directed research,
but it is "cheap" and can be done anywhere the texts are available.
That said, I would place deconstructing Adomnan's "Life of Columba" well before any larger analysis or refinement of larger apparat.
Perhaps it is time for a new edition of it.

For what it is worth, perhaps earlier gold work from this workshop appears in the Stirling hoard:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... llery.html
But once again, it comes down to trade routes to gold sources.

The source of the gold for all of these needs to be done with elemental analysis - X-ray spectroscopy? Particle acceleration?
The same thing holds for the silver sources.

The claims for an Anglo-Saxon workshop do not hold up at all, and can be pitched.

Carefully note the letter forms here, the epigraphy of this:

Image

"Rise up, o Lord, and may thy enemies be dispersed and those who hate thee be driven from thy face"

A contemporary document. Analyzed here:
http://babelstone.blogspot.com/2009/12/
E.P. Grondine
 

Re: Roman DNA

Postby Simon21 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:47 am

As I understand it the gold of the Staffordshire hoard is likely to have come from Byzantine coins. Someone has worked out a figure.

The site has also been re-excavated at least once.

It is probable there is not a single source for the items, but rather they were made in different areas.

Given the similarity of some of the items to work in France it certainly seems soime Frankish influence was brought to bear.

But apart from its composition an important question is what was happening here? Why were so many weapons dismantled? and why so roughly?

The general opinion seems to be that this is war booty
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Re: Roman DNA

Postby E.P. Grondine » Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:31 am

E.P. Grondine
 

Re: Roman DNA

Postby Simon21 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:43 pm

I haven't heard of any pictish symbols on the hoard. Some have suggested similarities in design to The book of Durrow but The overwhelming theme is Germanic.

The influence of the Franks on Britain however is established fact. This is probably how the gold came to Britain. The Pictish realms were miniscule in comparison. And of course we know practically nothing about them. Even the famous Nechtansmere stone is now disputed. And how did they relate to Goddodin?

The ground was sifted - a large number of flakes were recovered. Now they are trying to restore the area.
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Re: Roman DNA

Postby E.P. Grondine » Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:18 pm

Hi simon -

I need to work through a few things, and this electronic paper is the bees' knees.
I think you'll find it fun and interesting.

When I worked through these materials decades ago, Pict exhibited PIE characteristics -
a whole lot of variants from Indo European speakers tryng to record non Indo Euoprean phonology.
Problems with the aspirated consonants, r/l distinctions, t/d distinctions, o/u distinctions -
he same things seen with LInear B recordings of Liner A morphemes.
But if you notice the map above, they derive Clyde from Cruit.
I never imagined that kHo/ud/t could lead to Clyde,
but it is easy once you've seen it demonstrated as above -
think Cloide=>Clyde.

Now via the net I learned that In AD 368 a Roman historian named Ammianus Marcellinus noted that:
...the Picts, divided into two tribes called Dicalydones and Verturiones…
are roving at large and causing great devastation.
Checking on this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Conspiracy

"It is difficult to ascertain the exact chronology of the events because the main source—Ammianus—was living in Antioch at that time; thus his information looks second-hand and confused and, in addition, inconsistent with that produced by other sources. As a consequence there are several different views of what happened.[1]
"In the winter of 367, the Roman garrison on Hadrian's Wall rebelled, and allowed Picts from Caledonia to enter Britannia. Simultaneously, Attacotti, the Scotti from Hibernia, and Saxons from Germania landed in what might have been coordinated and pre-arranged[citation needed] waves on the island's mid-western and southeastern borders, respectively. Franks and Saxons also landed in northern Gaul.

These warbands managed to overwhelm nearly all of the loyal Roman outposts and settlements. The entire western and northern areas of Britannia were overwhelmed, the cities sacked and the civilian Romano-British murdered, raped, or enslaved.

Nectaridus, the comes maritime tractus (commanding general of the seacoast region), was killed and the Dux Britanniarum, Fullofaudes, was either besieged or captured and the remaining loyal army units stayed garrisoned inside southeastern cities.[2]

The miles areani or local Roman agents that provided intelligence on barbarian movements seem to have betrayed their paymasters for bribes, making the attacks completely unexpected. Deserting soldiers and escaped slaves roamed the countryside and turned to robbery to support themselves. Although the chaos was widespread and initially concerted, the aims of the rebels were simply personal enrichment and they worked as small bands rather than larger armies.

Historian Ian Hughes later argued that it is likely Nectaridus and Fullofaudes were killed by Saxon and Frankish raiders along the coast of Gaul, rather than by enemies in Britain,[3] although Hughes's account lacks historical evidence.

Early unsuccessful attempts

Emperor Valentinian I was campaigning against the Alamanni at the time and unable to respond personally. A series of commanders to act in his stead were chosen but swiftly recalled.

The first was Severus, the emperor's comes domesticorum, soon recalled and replaced by Jovinus, the magister equitum.[2] Jovinus then wrote back to Valentinian requesting reinforcements. The Emperor recalled Jovinus—probably to take part in a campaign along the Rhine, which was a higher priority—and then sent out Flavius Theodosius.[4]
Alternative chronology

Historian Ian Hughes later argued that Severus and Jovinus were never actually sent to Britain, it being unlikely they would go all that way and come back.[3] He proposed the following alternative chronology:

June 367 – Valentinian informed of Saxon and Frankish raids along the coast of Gaul which resulted in the deaths of Nectaridus and Fullofaudes;
Severus given a small force and ordered to gather information and counter the Saxon and Frankish raids;
Valentinian moves to Amiens in order to gather intelligence and co-ordinate a response to the attacks;
Severus returns with information that more troops are needed to restore order;
Jovinus is ordered to the coast and begins repelling attackers;
Jovinus passes word to the Emperor that Britain is under attack and he needs more troops to cross the Channel and restore the situation;
Valentinian decides to assemble a force under Theodosius for the attack.[5]

Arrival of Theodosius

In the spring of 368, a relief force commanded by Flavius Theodosius gathered at Bononia. It included four units, Batavi, Heruli, Iovii and Victores as well as his son, the later Emperor Theodosius I and probably the later usurper Magnus Maximus, his nephew.

Theodosius took advantage of a break in the winter weather to cross the Channel to Richborough, leaving the rest of his troops at Bononia to await better weather. This enabled Theodosius to gather vital intelligence.[6] He discovered that the British troops had either been overwhelmed, refused to fight or deserted; many also may not have been paid.[7]

Once the troops landed, Theodosius marched with them to Londinium which he made his base. There he began to deal with the invaders:

There he divided his troops into many parts and attacked the predatory bands of the enemy, which were ranging about and were laden with heavy packs; quickly routing those who were driving along prisoners and cattle, he wrested from them the booty which the wretched tribute-paying people had lost. And when all this had been restored to them, except for a small part which was allotted to the wearied soldiers, he entered the city, which had previously been plunged into the greatest difficulties, but had been restored more quickly than rescue could have been expected, rejoicing and as if celebrating an ovation.[2]

An amnesty was promised to deserters which enabled Theodosius to regarrison abandoned forts. A new Dux Britanniarum was appointed, Dulcitius, with Civilis granted vicarius status to head a new civilian administration.

After discovering that the local areani had collaborated with the invaders, Theodosius removed them from their positions.[8]

By the end of the year, the barbarians had been driven back to their homelands; the mutineers had been executed; Hadrian's Wall was retaken; and order returned to the diocese.

Theodosius also overcame and defeated the force of Valentinus, a Pannonian who had been exiled to Britain and joined the invaders.[8]

Considerable reorganization was undertaken in Britain, including the creation of a new province named Valentia, probably to better address the state of the far north. Claudian suggests that naval activity took place in northern Britain.

It is possible that Theodosius mounted punitive expeditions against the barbarians and extracted terms from them. Certainly, the Notitia Dignitatum later records four units of Attacotti serving Rome on the continent. The areani were removed from duty and the frontiers refortified with co-operation from border tribes such as the Votadini, marking the career of men such as Paternus."

But the important part was that the Picts were composed of two tribes, with one being the Cruit around Glasgow, the other being the tribe around Edinburg.
We have the Latin Dicalydones and Verturiones, with Dicalydones undoubtedly related to Caledonia- is this yet another variant of kHo/ud/t, Cloide=>Clyde?
If so, that would leave the Venturiones at Edinburgh, although thy have been placed in the lowlands.
E.P. Grondine
 

Re: Roman DNA

Postby E.P. Grondine » Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:21 pm

So let us tackle this two king system -

Image

Saint Orland's Stone - note the paired dogs, the paired rings with Z bar, and the crescent with V bar

paired dogs again -
Image

Another pair of beasties/dogs - hellhounds
Image

paired seals - no, sea ions. note the ears
Image

Image

Image

paired animals, Galloway hoard -

Image

This guy really knows his local battles for the area of the Gallowaay hoard:
Most likely candidate:
https://senchus.wordpress.com/2015/02/1 ... ck-ad-750/

other battles analyzed there by him as well
https://senchus.wordpress.com/2015/04/2 ... en-ystrat/


staffordshire hoard paired animals -
Image

beastie from staffordshire hoard -
Image

seal - YES, THAT IS A F*****G SEAL, AND THERE ARE NONE OF THEM IN GAUL OR GERMANIA -
Image
(now to go back up to the inscriptions)

bird - these are always identified as hawks or eagles, without further identification - the beaks differ, but as I don't know my bird species
Image

Image

isotopic atomic elemental analysis, but not on the gold yet, as near as I can see -
http://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/arc ... nloads.cfm
Last edited by E.P. Grondine on Tue May 01, 2018 7:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
E.P. Grondine
 

Re: Roman DNA

Postby E.P. Grondine » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:32 pm

Image

If those are Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John, they look really strange...
E.P. Grondine
 

Re: Roman DNA

Postby Simon21 » Tue May 01, 2018 4:45 am

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Posts: 490
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Re: Roman DNA

Postby E.P. Grondine » Tue May 01, 2018 8:19 am

E.P. Grondine
 

Re: Roman DNA

Postby E.P. Grondine » Tue May 01, 2018 9:37 am

In other news - Simon, it looks like you are going to be replaced by a robot:
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/ ... ce/559205/
E.P. Grondine
 

Re: Roman DNA

Postby Simon21 » Tue May 01, 2018 9:48 am

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