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Archaeologica.org • View topic - Roman DNA
Page 26 of 26

Re: Roman DNA

PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:53 pm
by kbs2244
Acts is not the only reference to Saul/Paul

In Romans Paul refers to members of Herod’s court as his “brother and mother”
This has been exhaustively researched. (Rom 16:11)

Paul's Herodian links

https://www.raystedman.org/new-testamen ... the-family

“The fact is that Paul mentions his relative, Herodion, in connection with these servants. You can see from his name that this man had connections with the family of Herod. This is also a hint to us that Paul himself had some connection with the ruling family of the Jews. His relative, Herodion, had become a Christian, and was living there in Rome as part of the household of either Aristobulus or Narcissus.

https://depts.drew.edu/jhc/eisenman.html

And Josephus refers to a “Saulus” with very similar story to that of Saul/Paul.

“It is curious that in the Antiquities, following Josephus' description of the stoning of James and the plundering of the tithes of the poor priests by the rich chief priests, Josephus refers to Saulus as leading a riot in Jerusalem.”
“As we have seen above, there are notices in Josephus about a member of the Herodian family named "Saulus," again not a very common name in this period.”

“If it were indicative of actual familial relationships with Herodians, which in my view it is, then by itself it explains the hint of Herodian membership and/or activity in the early Christian community in Antioch. It also very easily explains the matter of Paul's Roman citizenship, which is such an important element in his escapes.”

So, he seems to have been a historical, Roman citizen, character even in non-Biblical sources.

But, despite his travels, he never is said to have visited Britain.

Re: Roman DNA

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:13 pm
by Minimalist
The earliest extant manuscript of Romans is 3d century. I'm afraid that's way too late for me to put much stock in anything about it.

But then again, I have the same trouble with the whole NT.

Re: Roman DNA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:54 am
by Simon21
I think the point is not whether one particularly believes this about St Paul, but that there is plenty of evidence from other parts of the Empire that foreigners were granted citizenship in return for service, there is considerable evidence from Egypt for example.

Re: Roman DNA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:19 pm
by Minimalist
Just because someone was granted citizenship does not mean they automatically enrolled in the legions.

We do actually know quite a bit about where the various Imperial Legions were raised and served. For example, the 11th and 12th Legions were raised by Julius Caesar in North Italy before he began his campaign in Gaul. The 10th Legion was raised by Octavian to replace the 10th Legion which served his uncle in Gaul. Is it possible that there were foreigners who had recently been granted citizenship in the Legions? Yeah, its possible. But how many Africans, or Cretans, or Syrians, etc. could have been living in Cisalpine Gaul when Julius was gathering his army? I suspect damn few.

Re: Roman DNA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:35 pm
by kbs2244
My point about Paul was that serving in the army was not the only way a non-citizen of the city of Rome could become a citizen of the empire.

Re: Roman DNA

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:30 pm
by Simon21

Re: Roman DNA

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:31 pm
by Minimalist
After 212, every free male was made a citizen so once again, it depends on "when." And Caesar fought in Alexandria and in Tunisia. He did not get too far south.

Re: Roman DNA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:20 am
by Simon21

Re: Roman DNA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:35 am
by Minimalist

Re: Roman DNA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:19 pm
by kbs2244
It is not obvious to me.
Maybe "blacks” IE "Nubians"
Not Sub-Sahara but East coast ethnic area.

Re: Roman DNA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:29 pm
by Minimalist
Absolutely certain that there was genetic mixing along the Egyptian/Nubian border. That goes without saying, But that is still a long way from Alexandria. And the native "Egyptians" were pretty far down the social pecking order in their own country.

Re: Roman DNA

PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:48 pm
by Simon21

Re: Roman DNA

PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:56 pm
by Simon21

Re: Roman DNA

PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:34 am
by Simon21
Interestingly apropos the latter point one set of letters has a mother mourning her son joining the "barbarians" and by "barbarians" she means the army.