Neanderthal News

The science or study of primitive societies and the nature of man.

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Forum Monk
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Post by Forum Monk » Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:29 pm

Rokcet Scientist wrote:Yeah, he's got a much better system: the "C-4 system"!
You must agree, however, C-4 has limits. Alternative systems must be used after about 15ky.

Rokcet Scientist

Post by Rokcet Scientist » Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:36 pm

Forum Monk wrote:
As for the time line of Hominids, is it the concensus of this board that OOA is the correct hypothesis?
Yes.
A number of times.
But some of those merged again later. Elsewhere. While others went extinct.

Rokcet Scientist

Post by Rokcet Scientist » Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:39 pm

Forum Monk wrote:
You must agree, however, C-4 has limits.
But of course C-4 has limits!
That limit is


BOOOOM!
Last edited by Rokcet Scientist on Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Forum Monk
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Post by Forum Monk » Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:40 pm

Yea.
And C14 also.

Beagle
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Post by Beagle » Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:06 pm

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1 ... eria-.html
DNA extracted from skeletal remains has shown that Neanderthals roamed some 2000 kilometres further east than previously thought.

Researchers say the genetic sequence of an adolescent Neanderthal found in southern Siberia closely matches that of Neanderthals found in western Europe, suggesting that this close relative of modern humans migrated very long distances.

Svante Pääbo at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany, and colleagues examined skeletal remains found in the Okladnikov cave in the Altai Mountains and dated as between 30,000 and 38,000 years old . Until now, archaeologists have been unable to determine whether the remains belonged to Neanderthals or another species of extinct hominid because the bones are too fragmented.

Pääbo and his colleagues took 200 milligram samples of bone from the adolescent. After dissolving the mineral component of the bone, the team succeeded in extracting DNA from mitochondria – parts of the cell that produce energy.

Near-perfect match
After sequencing a short fragment of this DNA, the team compared it with that of several Neanderthals found in Europe. They discovered that it matched DNA recovered from remains found in Belgium almost perfectly. The match was "quite a bit of a surprise", according to Pääbo, since the new evidence extends the territory of this hominid some 2000 kilometres further east.
It appears that Neanderthal had a much wider range than was thought.

Beagle
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Post by Beagle » Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:17 pm

http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/pu ... 2710.shtml
Three tools dating from 40,000 years ago have been found in the caves

The confirmation that three flint tools date from 40,000 years ago confirms the fact that the Nerja Cave (Málaga province) was inhabited by Neanderthal man.

A group of scientists have been looking at items removed from the famous grotto some 20 years ago and say that there is no doubt about the evidence.

The tools date from the middle Palaeolithic period and are part of 151,588 items which have been newly classified in an operation led by Antonio Garrido.
And yet another article about another cave in Spain where Neanderthal tools were found. It doesn't say what kind of tools.

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Cognito
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Speech

Post by Cognito » Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:48 pm

Natural selection favors the paranoid

hardaker
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Post by hardaker » Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:28 am

Hi Beagle,
Thanks for these articles on Neanderthal. DNA is going to be an awesome tool for paleo demographics. How smart were these guys? And what about that article some time back about them "floating" across at Gibralter? Floating? We just can't have Neanderthal boats or rafts. I was in recent touch with a notable English phys. anthropologist who steadfastly holds that there is zero evidence for diffusion across the straits at anytime in the paleolithic, with emphasis on zero. and how many sites are covered by the Mediterranean? Cool time to be interested in this stuff.
Chris

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Cognito
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Morocco

Post by Cognito » Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:39 am

Chris, I thought we had a Neanderthal skull in Morocco but it turns out to be a 160kya H. sapien boy of about 8 years. Still impressive for H. sapiens to be so far from East Africa at that time since the earliest discovery in East Africa is 195kya so far.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... id=1828706

I suspect, eventually, we'll find some form of H. sapien who was 250-300kya and certainly capable of boating distances, moreso than Erectus Ahoy. Puts a new wrinkle into the Valsequillo story, eh? I won't mention what Virginia thinks here, or I'd be banned! :D
Natural selection favors the paranoid

kbs2244
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Post by kbs2244 » Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:20 am

I do belive there is wat too much current a Gibralter to just "float" across.
You would hae to know how to, and want to, work at it.

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Cognito
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Gibralter Straight

Post by Cognito » Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:32 pm

I do belive there is way too much current a Gibralter to just "float" across. You would hae to know how to, and want to, work at it.
The narrowest point across Gibralter is 14km (8 miles) today. During the height of the ice ages lowering sea levels narrowed the gap to 5-7km (3 to 4 miles). That isn't too difficult to paddle, but the current must have been strong and I don't know why any HSN would be motivated to travel to the other side in the first place. :?
Natural selection favors the paranoid

Forum Monk
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Re: Gibralter Straight

Post by Forum Monk » Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:53 pm

Cognito wrote:... I don't know why any HSN would be motivated to travel to the other side in the first place. :?
Interesting because the first guy would not only have to make it across, but make the return trip as well. Otherwise, he would have been a population of one on the other side unless he told others how to safely make the journey.

I do not doubt, though, they were motivated to make the trip in the same way we were motivated to take enourmous risks to cross-over into outer space.

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Barracuda
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Post by Barracuda » Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:00 pm

I thought the new about HN in Siberia was HUGE!

3-4 miles is just a light afternoon swim for a strong swimmer!

Beagle
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Post by Beagle » Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:42 pm

Me too Barracuda.

Mousterian tools have been found in Morroco, but no skeletal remains as yet. But that's pretty strong evidence that HN came over. Tools were also found around Alexandria. One day we might find evidence of HN having a range that included all of North Africa. It wouldn't surprise me, especially in light of the recent discovery in Siberia.

Roxanne
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Skin pigmentation Neanderthal/HSS

Post by Roxanne » Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:48 pm

Well, here goes-- into the frying pan. I was following a discussion on a genetic genealogy list and it was suggested that HSS hasn't been out of Africa a sufficent period of time to develop differentiation in the gene controlling skin pigment to have light skin but that Neanderthal had been in northern climes for a long enough period to develop adaptive permanent gene changes in skin color and some idiosyncratic changes in hair color (red, blonde) and eye color blue. The theory was these were Neanderthal traits and therefore had to be an indication of interbreeding.

They argue the genetics of mtdna are not showing Neanderthal as a close relative due to our having such a limited sample of Neanderthal mtdna. Since 90-99% of all modern human mtdna from the same time period went extinct no reason to believe we would be able to luck onto a Neanderthal sample that made it through the big die off.

Does anyone else think there may Neanderthals among us or are us? (My Uncle Ted is a little suspect.)

Does anyone have an opinion about this? They also cited native Inuit as not having made a significant skin pigment change despite a lengthy period in the Artic hence perhaps no interbreeding with Neanderthals.

Roxanne

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