Neanderthal Genome News

The science or study of primitive societies and the nature of man.

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Beagle
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Neanderthal Genome News

Post by Beagle » Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:19 am

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/scien ... 08222.html

Most of this article is standard fare, but the quote from Paabo is most revealing.


They extracted enough DNA from an analysis of 70 fossilised bones to build up a library of Neanderthal DNA covering 3.7 billion "base pairs" – the individual letters of the genetic code – and in the process discovered that the extinct humans were very closely related to modern people.

"The Neanderthals are so closely related to us that they fall into our [genetic] variation," Professor Paabo said yesterday. In other words, it would be difficult to distinguish Neanderthal DNA from the DNA of a modern European, Asian or African.
That's from the horses mouth.

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Post by Minimalist » Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:10 pm

If only we could get an HE genome.

Great stuff, Beags.
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Digit
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Post by Digit » Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:35 am

Jesus Beag! how long have I been arguing that?

Roy.
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Post by Minimalist » Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:37 am

No one listens to you, eh Dig!
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Digit
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Post by Digit » Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:39 am

For about fifty bloody years Min!
There's nothing so stubborn as those who can't see what's staring them in the face is there?
Like Dactyls can't fly and Dinos are slow clumsy lizards. I shall have to find another hobby horse now damn it!

Roy.
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt

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Post by Minimalist » Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:49 am

No sweat, man. I'm married. I'm used to not being listened to.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

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Post by Digit » Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:53 am

"The Neanderthals are so closely related to us that they fall into our [genetic] variation," Professor Paabo said yesterday. In other words, it would be difficult to distinguish Neanderthal DNA from the DNA of a modern European, Asian or African.
That's the piece that especially interested me Min as it raises two points.
Firstly, Darwin stated his belief that all humans were of one species, right or wrong that is of course still the 'official' view. That being so then any animal whose genome falls within the envelope that is HSS is HSS!
That being so again HSS and HSN are one and the same.
Following from that, expecting to find 'HSN genes' in modern man is like trying to find soup in soup!

Roy.
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt

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Post by Minimalist » Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:40 am

"That being so again HSS and HSN are one and the same."


We've discussed at length the relatively minor differences of skin color and the somewhat more major differences in skeletal structure between the so-called "races." The claimed differences between HSS and HNS seem, on the surface, to be even less than that. (Brow ridges? Bigger noses?? Short, barrel-chested stature???)

But even among modern humans you can find traits like those. They simply cannot make much of a case for HNS being a different "species."
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

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Post by Digit » Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:44 am

They simply cannot make much of a case for HNS being a different "species."
Which now leads to the inevitable question Min as to how different was late HE?

Roy.
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt

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Post by Minimalist » Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:56 pm

Hell. How different was Early H.E? Can we confidently predict that HE was a different "species" on the basis of what we have seen so far?
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

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Post by Digit » Thu Mar 19, 2009 2:25 pm

Frankly Min I doubt we can.
The Chinese have been condemned as nationlistic for their view on man's development but I see much merit in it.
Traditional Darwinism states that species change when under stress, but what happens without that stress?
A species that develops to best fit a given environment should have no reason to change in a stable environment, or Darwin was wrong.
The most stable environment for thousands of years has been Australia, and I suspect that the aboriginal people are as near HE as we are ever going to see.
As you head north and east in to Asia so the people change, but the Chinese experts believe that they are a straight line to HE. Only in Europe, which has suffered the greatest stress do we seem to see major changes in the early HE type that are identified as sufficiently different so as to be given different specific names.
None of this dis allows AOA one and two.
We are told that all humans are HSS, from that the genetic variation has to be broad enough to accommodate all humans, but how does that variation compare with other species of the same age I would like to know.

Roy.
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt

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Post by Minimalist » Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:13 pm

Darwin also required groups to be isolated. Animals can be isolated by geography but man has shown a persistent ability to bypass geography.

Rats. There are those damned boats again.

Besides, if head lice can only thrive on humans and they seem to have had no trouble living on HE, what does that tell us? If even the lice are confused what hope do we have?
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

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Post by Digit » Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:40 pm

But the Australians have been isolated for 60k yrs Min.
Take the St Kilda Mice and Wrens.
The mice have been separated on their islands for only a thousand years and they, along with the Wren, are already larger than the mainland species.
They are all three classified as sub-species, this is classical Galapagos scenario. Ring any bells with Australia?
The problem with the Human species is that no one dare classify any groups as sub anything, yet the physical differences between the Australians and the Scandinavians is much greater than the St Kilda Wrens or Mice from the mainland species for example.
Classifying the human species is as touchy a subject now as it was in Darwin's time.
If the genetic spread of HSS is ten times wider than for Chimps for example the spread would be accepted rather than state that such and such people are not HSS.
God knows what will happen if Flores fall within our genotype!
All we want now is some HE DNA then the crap could really hit the fan!

Roy.
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt

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Post by Minimalist » Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:13 pm

But the Australians have been isolated for 60k yrs Min.

Why?

Did the boats stop working? We know that they reached Australia 60 kya but why assume that there were no other voyages? The first trip is always the hardest.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

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Post by Digit » Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:33 pm

Why? Who knows? Why did they make the crossing in the first place? And I was surprised to read that the colonisation of Oz was carried out by a small group, not a large migration.
Same apparently applies to the Andamans, maybe there was pressure to move that caused the migration then the pressure eased, who knows?

Roy.
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt

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