Neandertal tech raised a notch

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Neandertal tech raised a notch

Postby Rokcet Scientist » Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:25 am

HN's technological competence re-appraised:

Neanderthals were able to 'develop their own tools'

Image
It is still unknown why Neanderthals went extinct

Neanderthals were keen on innovation and technology and developed tools all on their own, scientists say.

A new study challenges the view that our close relatives could advance only through contact with Homo sapiens.

The team says climate change was partly responsible for forcing Neanderthals to innovate in order to survive.

The research is set to appear in the Journal of Archaeological Method and Theory in December.

"Basically, I am rehabilitating Neanderthals," said Julien Riel-Salvatore, assistant professor of anthropology at the University of Colorado in Denver, who led the seven-year study.

"They were far more resourceful than we have given them credit for."

Vanished culture

Neanderthals were first discovered in Germany's Neander Valley in 1856.

It is believed that they lived in Europe and parts of Asia. Close examination of the found fossils shows that they shared 99.5-99.9% of modern humans' DNA, which makes them our closest relatives.

They had short, muscular bodies, large brains, prominent facial features and barrel chests.

Neanderthals split from our evolutionary line some 500,000 years ago, and disappeared off the face of the Earth about 30,000 years ago.

Since the first discovery, anthropologists have been trying to crack the mystery of the vanished culture, also debating whether or not Neanderthals were evolving on their own or through contact with Homo sapiens.

During the research, Dr Riel-Salvatore and his colleagues examined Neanderthal sites across Italy.

About 42,000 years ago, Homo sapiens and Neanderthals were already living in the northern and central parts of the area.

At that time, an entirely new group appeared in the south.

The researchers believe that the southerners were also Neanderthals, of a culture named Uluzzian.

Image
Neanderthals lived in Europe and parts of Asia

Dr Riel-Salvatore's team was astonished to find quite a few innovations throughout the area, even though the Uluzzians were isolated from Homo sapiens.

They discovered projectile points, ochre, bone tools, ornaments and possible evidence of fishing and small game hunting.

"My conclusion is that if the Uluzzian is a Neanderthal culture, it suggests that contacts with modern humans are not necessary to explain the origin of this new behaviour.

"This stands in contrast to the ideas of the past 50 years that Neanderthals had to be acculturated to [modern] humans to come up with this technology.

"When we show Neanderthals could innovate on their own, it casts them in a new light.

"It 'humanises' them, if you will."

Brothers?

The researchers believe that one reason that forced Neanderthals to innovate was a shift in climate.

When the area where they were living started to become increasingly open and arid, they had no choice but to adapt - or die out.

"The fact that Neanderthals could adapt to new conditions and innovate shows they are culturally similar to us," said Dr Riel-Salvatore.

He added that they were also similar biologically, and should be considered a subspecies of human rather than a different species.

"My research suggests that they were a different kind of human, but humans nonetheless.

"We are more brothers than distant cousins."


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-11408298

Looks like there's no getting around the fact that HN may have been different from us, HS, but he's starting to also look about as capable as us.
But to declare HN 'equal' to HS, whatever that may mean, is still a bridge too far for me. There still is the inconvenient fact that HN did go extinct! While HS didn't (yet).
And because that happened while they were both living in the same era/climates I still have to conclude that HS proved more adaptable than HN.
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Re: Neandertal tech raised a notch

Postby Digit » Wed Oct 06, 2010 4:26 am

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/203 ... itive-soul

This must be the longest rehabilitation on record.

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Re: Neandertal tech raised a notch

Postby Minimalist » Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:20 am

IT does take a long time to overcome first impressions. Lately though the trickle of evidence seems to have become a flood.

HN will be vindicated.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Re: Neandertal tech raised a notch

Postby uniface » Fri Oct 08, 2010 2:31 pm

to declare HN 'equal' to HS, whatever that may mean, is still a bridge too far for me. There still is the inconvenient fact that HN did go extinct! While HS didn't (yet).
And because that happened while they were both living in the same era/climates I still have to conclude that HS proved more adaptable than HN.

Impeccably Darwinian. And utterly fatuous, IMHO.

Did the millions of Indians who went extinct in the Americas do so because they were inferior in adaptive capability, and were hense not fully the 'equal' of the Europeans who (inadvertantly, in the main) did them in ?
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Re: Neandertal tech raised a notch

Postby Digit » Fri Oct 08, 2010 4:38 pm

Good point!

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Re: Neandertal tech raised a notch

Postby Rokcet Scientist » Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:35 pm

uniface wrote:
to declare HN 'equal' to HS, whatever that may mean, is still a bridge too far for me. There still is the inconvenient fact that HN did go extinct! While HS didn't (yet).
And because that happened while they were both living in the same era/climates I still have to conclude that HS proved more adaptable than HN.

Impeccably Darwinian. And utterly fatuous, IMHO.

Did the millions of Indians who went extinct in the Americas do so because they were inferior in adaptive capability, and were hense not fully the 'equal' of the Europeans who (inadvertantly, in the main) did them in ?


Correct!
In evolutionary terms those indians, and the hottentots, and probably a host of other peoples who came and went over the aeons, were indeed inferior in adaptive capability, i.o.w. "not fully the 'equal'" (your words) to the HS types still around today.
That's not a moral judgment. That's a factual judgment.
Whether we like it or not has nothing to do with it. It happened. And it's straight from the pages of the Origin: either adapt to changing circumstances, or perish. Literally textbook examples.
It seems also to be happening to honeybees, the world over, as we speak, for instance. And the jury is still out on whether the species will survive.

But every day there is a species going extinct! Most of those extinctions escape our awareness because they're creepie crawlies, or plants, or seaborne life forms, or too small for the human eye to see. But they do go extinct! That's the evolutionary rule. Survival is the exception.
And the global warming, energy and water crises of this 21st century seem to be HS' next evolutionary bottleneck!

If E.P.'s celestial Impactor Rex doesn't hit us first!

:lol:
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Re: Neandertal tech raised a notch

Postby Digit » Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:30 am

The logical deduction from that then is the inability of the Tasmanians to adapt to bullet wounds makes them inferior in adaptive ability.
The NA Indians are still around of course as are the Hottentots, as may be HSN within us. Until we know why HSN vanished I fail to see how we can pass judgement on them.

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Re: Neandertal tech raised a notch

Postby Rokcet Scientist » Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:45 am

Digit wrote:The logical deduction from that then is the inability of the Tasmanians to adapt to bullet wounds makes them inferior in adaptive ability.

Correct. They were in the wrong place at the wrong time. They couldn't survive the circumstances.
The NA Indians are still around of course as are the Hottentots

(NA) indians are still around, yes. Only 95% less than when Columbus landed. But FYI: hottentots aren't around anymore. They went extinct in the 17th century. Dead as a Dodo...
If you disagree I invite you to show me just one live hottentot.
, as may be HSN within us.

You seem to have a problem with the concept of 'extinction'. It pertains to (a) species. Not to its surviving DNA bits in other species. If that were the case then not even dinosaurs went extinct. As a separate species HN disappeared = went extinct.
Until we know why HSN vanished I fail to see how we can pass judgement on them.

Maybe you "pass judgement on them", but I don't. I only have an opinion (although the difference seems to elude you). An opinion that can change as more/other knowledge becomes available. So it is an interim opinion, based on what we know of them now, which, as you may have noticed, has changed considerably over the past half century. And may possibly change even further. So my opinion may change even further as well. That's what opinions do, but what judgements don't. Judgements are final. So not applicable to HN, because our knowledge of them is incomplete.
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Re: Neandertal tech raised a notch

Postby Digit » Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:18 am

As requested.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khoikhoi&sa=U&ei=ioSwTODfJ5id4AaqqMnnBg&ved=0CBkQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNG70lsPa3_0hlfvGuqYyjiZ2cCNCA


They couldn't survive the circumstances.
were indeed inferior in adaptive capability,

So which are we discussing, adaptive ability or circumstances?
I fail to see how being hit on the head by a space rock suggests a lack of adaptive ability.
As regards the Honey Bee it is adapting, a keeper in Leicestershire is breeding resistant strains, I discussed this with Min some time ago.

Maybe you "pass judgement on them", but I don't.


A disagreement on vernacular English again I think.

If that were the case then not even dinosaurs went extinct.


Birds?
Extinction, if we are hybrids of HSN and HSS, which went extinct?

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Re: Neandertal tech raised a notch

Postby Rokcet Scientist » Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:52 am

Digit wrote:As requested.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khoikhoi&sa=U&ei=ioSwTODfJ5id4AaqqMnnBg&ved=0CBkQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNG70lsPa3_0hlfvGuqYyjiZ2cCNCA

That's exactly what I suspected you would come up with. It's a standard, widespread misconception. Which even fools Wikipedia, as you see.
Hottentots were (are) NOT bushmen. Hottentots were a different race altogether. Were! They're gone! As in "not alive as a separate species anymore".
Khoikoi are a subgroup of bushmen, which is a different, separate race. They are NOT hottentots!
Digit wrote:
They couldn't survive the circumstances.
were indeed inferior in adaptive capability,

So which are we discussing, adaptive ability or circumstances?

Both, my friend! If circumstances don't change a species does not need to adapt. If they do change they do need to adapt. Or perish.
Digit wrote:I fail to see how being hit on the head by a space rock suggests a lack of adaptive ability.

I don't: if you can jump aside fast enough you can avoid being hit on the head. If you can't you perish... :lol:
Digit wrote:As regards the Honey Bee it is adapting, a keeper in Leicestershire is breeding resistant strains, I discussed this with Min some time ago.

The jury is still out on the honeybees' survival because it isn't certain by a long shot that those fungus resistant strains arrive in time. Irreversible damage to the species may already haven been done.

Digit wrote:
Maybe you "pass judgement on them", but I don't.


A disagreement on vernacular English again I think.

Paternalistic cop out.

Digit wrote:
If that were the case then not even dinosaurs went extinct.


Birds?

FYI: birds are not dinosaurs. They are considered different groups of species, of which one, the birds, carry forward a number of DNA bits of the other (extinct) species. They are still considered distinct, separate groups of species.
Digit wrote:Extinction, if we are hybrids of HSN and HSS, which went extinct?

We are hybrids of HS and HN insofar as we probably carry tiny leftover bits of HN DNA. But our DNA is mainly HS. So HN went extinct.
Just like with dinos and birds.
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Re: Neandertal tech raised a notch

Postby Digit » Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:26 am

http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http://ww ... 9Av9krXyng

It would seem that wiki is not the only one being fooled.

There is no evidence that wild Honey Bees are in any trouble at all RS.
What percentage of DNA is required to be a hybrid?
The experts suggest that blue eyes, red hair, freckles and even white skin is our inheritance from HSN, every visible attribute that distinguishes us from Asiatics for example.
The percentage is said to be 4 percent, that may not be a great deal, but it would depend on what that 4 percent results in, what would we look like without it? So as I said, what percentage is required for a hybrid and if the hybrid eliminates its parents, which went extinct?
I don't see any apparent HSNs around nor any Cro Magnons either.
At the moment people are studying HSN DNA, I would like them to study Cro Magnon's as well, could be revealing.

Roy.
Last edited by Digit on Sat Oct 09, 2010 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Neandertal tech raised a notch

Postby Rokcet Scientist » Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:39 am

Digit wrote:I don't see any apparant HSNs around nor any Cro Magnons either.

In a 21st century business suit you wouldn't know one if he hit you over the head, Roy.
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Re: Neandertal tech raised a notch

Postby Rokcet Scientist » Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:51 am

Digit wrote:http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07497a.htm&sa=U&ei=e5KwTJzuFsn_4Aavl8nSAQ&ved=0CCYQFjAB&usg=AFQjCNF-Qdv-97DNo37S2t2s9Av9krXyng

It would seem that wiki is not the only one being fooled.

Quite!
This gentleman, for instance, argues about a hottentot language. That's quite a feat as that language hasn't been heard, least of all studied, since the 17th century.
Or what he debits about 'clicks'. That's pure BS!
I used to live in South Africa and I can tell you that all native languages south of the Zambesi use clicks. Some use 'soft' clicks, like the swazi, the zulu, the tswana, and the sotho peoples, in central and eastern South Africa. Some use 'hard', or at least harder clicks, like the bushmen (and possibly the hottentots, but we have no way of knowing), in western South Africa/Namibia.
And all of those click languages distinguish six (6) different (sounding*) clicks. Not just 4, as the author of that piece claims.

*different sounding to them! For us westerners it is almost impossible to hear a difference between one click and another because our ears are not tuned to, and incapable of picking up the subtle differences.

I knew one – white – South African who could speak Zulu like a native, complete with the 6 (soft) clicks. Because he was raised by a zulu nanny. So Zulu was his first language. He was a great exception. I suspect only a few hundred caucasians can speak a southern African click language like a native.
BTW: all-American rocksinger Linda Ronstadt was born and raised in Tucson, Az. Raised by a Mexican nanny. So Spanish was her first language. English only second. Which explains why she can sing Mariachi songs like a native (Mexican).

https://www.wetransfer.com/dl.php?code=N81bKq8s&hash=078ae3183a33af99b30a0322ec50e5870d87ebf64f8e49d079538b0e2ae1999ece560a3a21de31

That's evolution for ya! Adaptation to the circumstances...!
Last edited by Rokcet Scientist on Sat Oct 09, 2010 10:34 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Neandertal tech raised a notch

Postby Digit » Sat Oct 09, 2010 10:06 am

In a 21st century business suit you wouldn't know one if he hit you over the head, Roy.


Please note 'Apparent'.

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Re: Neandertal tech raised a notch

Postby Digit » Sun Oct 10, 2010 5:08 am

The supposed 4 per cent difference in DNA led me to ask what effect that might have had.
One thing I have difficulty with is the actual material used in that comparison. The 4 percent shows conclusively that the two species interbred, this means that their DNA must have been very close indeed.
So what are we comparing? We are are comparing ancient HSN DNA with modern HSNxHSS hybrid DNA.
So what does this tell us?
Very little I think.
An example. Let us cross two breeds of horse, say the PalaminoxSufolk Punch, then compare the offspring's DNA with the Suffolk Punch. What exactly would that tell us about the Palamino?
Not a lot I suspect. It would tell us that the offspring's DNA varied slightly from the SP, ring any bells anyone?
When Cro Magnon's remains were found the overt racism of the day meant that science declared that 'this was the well spring of modern man, not that bow legged, hunch backed, moron from the Neander valley.'
But the typical CM is as extinct as HSN.
That area of Eurasia that was the strong hold of HSN is also the home of the fair skinned, blue eyed, red haired peoples. Is this a coincidence?
The logical deduction has to be that that modern European stock is a cross between two extinct forms, thus if CM is supposed to be HSS, what are we?
The answer to that will only emerge when we cease to compare HSN's DNA with modern man's DNA and start to compare it with CM's DNA. Otherwise with are in the midst of my horse analogy.

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