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Archaeologica.org • View topic - Fish Story
Page 2 of 3

Re: Fish Story

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:14 pm
by kbs2244
Ouch!
So now you are challenging on of the basic premises of the original story?

Re: Fish Story

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:19 pm
by Digit
Nope! I'm challenging your idea of cutting a slice of snail shell, the report says....

we think they just put bait on and dropped the hook in the water from a boat (at the) edge of a reef,"

...I doubt that a sliced shell would hold a big fish as listed in their report.
Also I doubt very much that fishing was the start, as I said, somehow I can't see Og turning to Mog and saying, 'today I'm gonna invent angling and I'm off to catch Tuna.'
I equally doubt that our species waited till they had an IQ greater than a Hamster before they started scavenging along the tide lines, nor that they waited for boats to be developed before they ate fish.
The list of fish in the report suggests that by the time the scenario they are reporting on came about, angling was something of a specialist trade, I can't see people going after Tuna simply to produce a Tuna sandwich. Aside from sport fishing you'd only go after such large specimens you wished to feed a number of people, nothing goes 'off' in heat quite as fast as fish!
There is also another point not covered, and that is that the snail shell might well have had an occupant! Why bait an empty shell if the bait comes ready supplied. There is a lot not covered in that report. I await further discoveries

Roy.

Roy.

Re: Fish Story

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:11 pm
by Minimalist
There would have been plenty of enticements to head for the shore. Shellfish, birds, sea mammals and then the occasional fish washing up with a totally different taste.

But at some point ideas had to form about how to catch them on a more regular basis.

Re: Fish Story

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:21 am
by Digit
Agreed Min, but I suspect that scavenging the tide ocurred many generations before we were capable of reasoning, after all Komodo Dragons scavenge the tide line!
The report glosses over certain practical problems, it states that Tuna were probably caught with a lure, fine, but without a hook or a gorge the lure is simply a decoration on the end of the line.
Most fish have rearward facing teeth at the back of the throat, useless for chewing but it prevents them from spitting out what they have swallowed normally, thus a bait and a gorge is more practical for a large fish than a hook made from snail shell.
Then we have the problem of a line, Tuna are fast swimmers, when they want to be, and strong. Today when hooked by sports fishermen they are 'played' to tire them by a friction brake on the reel, something Og didn't have. Running a hempen cord through your hands is a sure fire method of flaying your fingers, trust me!
This also requires a considerable length of line, it would also have to be capable of holding a heavy thrashing fish without braking.
That same length of fine line would be much better used in producing a net, instead of the fish being restrained by a single cord it is now restrained by multiple cords. A net will also catch birds and animals, something a hook won't do, also a damaged net can be repaired, a broken fishing line is a lost line, along with all the effort that went into making it.
I think there is a substantial amount of guess work in that report Min.

Roy.

Re: Fish Story

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:31 am
by circumspice

Re: Fish Story

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:32 am
by Digit
I agree that if hooks were made they were used C, as you suggest, for smaller fish, but when these experts use these throw away lines such as 'lures were used to catch Tuna,' with no suggestion as to how this was accomplished, I feel a desperate urge to ask them to accompany you on one of your fishing expeditions to obtain some practical experience.
A net is indeed a great investment of time and effort, but a large Tuna, which won't keep, will feed a lot of people, the same people who helped make the net, which of course can be made in smaller sections then joined to make one large net, so here we are talking about co-operation between people.
This is the only sensible reason for catching large fish I suggest.

Roy.

Re: Fish Story

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:08 pm
by kbs2244
So:
We have hooks and we have Tuna remains near each other but we are saying that they may not be related?

That brings up some questions:
If the Tuna was not by hooks, then how?
They would be virtually impossible to harpoon, especially from shore, and I know of no history of them stranding themselves on beaches. They are a deep water fish.

And if the hooks were not for the Tuna, then what were they for?
Was there any other fish remains found?

Re: Fish Story

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:35 pm
by Minimalist
If the tuna did not come to the shore then the fisherman had to go to the tuna.

Boats....and nets?

But such an industry could not grow overnight. I have to think there was a long developmental period.

Re: Fish Story

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:09 pm
by Digit

Re: Fish Story

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:40 pm
by kbs2244
Tuna are not very netable.
Too strong and too sleek.
They are a “swordfish” and can use that sword to slash themselves out of trouble.
When sport fisherman go for them, they use about 150 feet of steel line behind the hook to keep the fish from turning and cutting itself free.

Even today, with synthetic materials for nets, they are caught with “long line” trolling and baited hooks on steel “branch” lines off the main long line.

Tuna are voracious eaters. I remember watching a video where a guy on a shark research dive videoed one going through a school of anchovies. It just kept coming back through the school, which looked about the size of a six flat, until there were only 5 to 10 fish left.

It ignored the diver.

Nets would just take too much cordage.

If they were regularly eating tuna, they were very good deep water fishermen.
Bit it may not have been a hook in the mouth.
The bait may have been taken all the way into the stomach with the line attached.
Even today that is how Bass are hooked.

Re: Fish Story

PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:09 am
by Digit
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j& ... Jw&cad=rja

As I pointed out, the word Tuna is generic kb.
I also pointed out that nets would logically be a communal effort, as would the eating of the fish, so each person would only produce a small piece. Even today nets are not always produced in continuous lengths.
If you were to play a large fish you would need many yards of line anyway.
Frankly I would try a live bait with gorge attached, a moderate length of line and a large lump of timber as I buoy.

Roy.

Re: Fish Story

PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:21 am
by circumspice

Re: Fish Story

PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:11 am
by Digit

Re: Fish Story

PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:09 am
by Minimalist

Re: Fish Story

PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:30 am
by Digit
Well Min I wouldn't go to all the trouble of fashioning the necessary equipment to take a 50lb fish simply to make a Tuna and Mayo sandwich! The size of some of the species listed infers feeding a group, from there it becomes a group enterprise to catch 'em.

Roy.