Is the Jesus story an astrological allegory?

The study of religious or heroic legends and tales. One constant rule of mythology is that whatever happens amongst the gods or other mythical beings was in one sense or another a reflection of events on earth. Recorded myths and legends, perhaps preserved in literature or folklore, have an immediate interest to archaeology in trying to unravel the nature and meaning of ancient events and traditions.

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Postby Digit » Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:05 pm

Granted Ish, and the Jewish zealots would have resisted it tooth and nail anyway. But my point was in the details, the inn being full is indicative of a good story writer, or a good reporter, then the whole idea goes down the pan with a winter scenario IMO.
And I hate to think what Min my post in the way of any further cartoons! :lol:
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Postby Digit » Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:17 pm

Ish, I've carefully re read the post where you asked me if that made more sense.
Two points, it states that the Vernal Equinox begins on the 21st, it doesn't.
Due to the need for leap years the date varies anywhere between the 19 and 22, also I can't now remember, where did you find the ref to the Southern Cross as it's not in the post I referred to?
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Postby Minimalist » Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:19 pm

There was a census in 6 AD and Josephus recounts some resistance from those zealots. But the notion of everyone picking up and going somewhere else is simply stupid. The Romans wanted to know what was in the new praefecture they acquired....they did not want to disrupt the lives of the whole region. That would be bad for business.

Too many christian literalists say "if its in the bible it must be true" instead of looking at things logically.

Oh...and while Bethlehem was in the newly formed praefecture of Judaea, Nazareth was not. It was in Galilee and remained firmly under the control of Herod Antipas.
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Postby Ishtar » Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:21 pm

The reference to the Southern Cross comes straight from the film script.

"During this 3 day pause, the Sun resides in the vicinity of the Southern Cross, or Crux,"

Is that what you mean?

I take your point about the vernal equinox.
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Postby Ishtar » Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:22 pm

Minimalist wrote:
Oh...and while Bethlehem was in the newly formed praefecture of Judaea, Nazareth was not. It was in Galilee and remained firmly under the control of Herod Antipas.


Min, I thought Nazereth didn't exist at that time?
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Postby Digit » Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:30 pm

Well I think that ref can probably be ignored Ish.
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Postby Forum Monk » Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:39 pm

Minimalist wrote:But the notion of everyone picking up and going somewhere else is simply stupid. The Romans wanted to know what was in the new praefecture they acquired....they did not want to disrupt the lives of the whole region. That would be bad for business.


This depends on who was in charge of conducting the census (jews or romans) and whether or not the jewish authorities where carrying out the counting in accordance with their custom. iirc it was jewish law to return to the city of one's birth for a counting. It may have had a tribal origin. Now I could be totally wrong about this but I seem to think it was a the jewish way of doing it - not a roman requirement. Quirinius just wanted a count.
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Postby Digit » Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:48 pm

That's how I understand it Monk. Trying to debunk the Jesus story, for me, falls flat because of Paul.
Paul never knew Jesus, and in fact persecuted the Jewish converts till his own conversion, but he was contemporaneous with the Disciples.
I find it difficult to accept that such a hard headed Zealot as Saul would have converted on the basis of wild rumours.
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Postby kbs2244 » Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:57 pm

The whole problem is that the traditional Chriistmas story as we all know it now, is not bibical at all.
If you can find a copy of it, read

Edwin Hatch,
The Influence of Greek Ideas and Usages upon the Christian Church
(1891)
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Postby Ishtar » Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:09 pm

Digit wrote:That's how I understand it Monk. Trying to debunk the Jesus story, for me, falls flat because of Paul.
Paul never knew Jesus, and in fact persecuted the Jewish converts till his own conversion, but he was contemporaneous with the Disciples.
I find it difficult to accept that such a hard headed Zealot as Saul would have converted on the basis of wild rumours.


Dig - I don't think we can use what the Bible says as evidence of anything. It's already pretty well established that it is, to say the very least, a fallible source of historical fact -if it was ever intended for such a purpose.
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Postby Forum Monk » Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:15 pm

Ishtar wrote:Dig - I don't think we can use what the Bible says as evidence of anything. It's already pretty well established that it is, to say the very least, a fallible source of historical fact -if it was ever intended for such a purpose.


It should not be dismissed entirely, Ishtar. While it may be ...erm... biased to a particular world view, it is a very important resource and has demonstrated reliability in many archaeological finds. It is the interpretation of the finds which remains controversial, imo.
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Postby Ishtar » Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:19 pm

FM, I'm not dismissing it entirely, but it is not a historical document. It is a collection of stories, myths, which are not necessarily (and there is little evidence for them being) based on fact.

There is no evidence that Jesus ever lived. Fact. There are just some stories in a book called The Bible which are remarkablly similar - down to specific details - to other stories told thousands of years before in that part of the world.
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Postby Forum Monk » Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:29 pm

Neither is the Rig Veda a historical document, but within its poems is a historical context which is valuable. Of course you're not dismissing it entirely, but very few other resources are extant for this particular culture at this particular time, hence its intrinsic value as a historical work.

Its fine art in separating myth from reality at times, and often times mythology has a historical basis. Digit makes a valid point about Paul. Of course one can always dismiss it and say, Paul was completely made up as well.
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Postby Ishtar » Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:48 pm

FM, the Rig Veda too is mythology. Indra, the main god, is not a real person and most people understand that.

But whether or not the Rig-veda or the Bible provides us with valid historical data or not, is not the point.

This is the point. Christianity sells the idea that Jesus was a real historical figure and that all the stories connected to him are true. The religion does this even though going back into antiquity, Church writers knew that the story was remarkably similar to other stories which everyone knew were myths. So we are talking about deception here. And they used this decepton to control people.

I've tabulated the main facts from three of the stories to make it easier for you to compare the similarities. The first one is the story of Horus which is dated to 3,000 BC:

Horus of Egypt

Born on December 25th of the virgin Isis-Meri
Birth was accompanied by a star in the east which three kings followed to locate and adore the new-born saviour
At the age of 12, he was a prodigal child teacher
At the age of 30, he was baptized by a figure known as Anup and thus began his ministry.
Had12 disciples he travelled about with, performing miracles, such as healing the sick and walking on water.
Known as The Truth, The Light, God's Anointed Son, The Good Shepherd, The Lamb of God.
After being betrayed by Typhon, was crucified, buried for 3 days and thus, resurrected.

Attis of Phyrigia

Born of the virgin Nana on December 25th
Crucified, placed in a tomb
After 3 days, was resurrected.

Dionysus of Greece

Born of a virgin on December 25th
Was a travelling teacher who performed miracles such as turning water into wine.
Known as the "King of Kings," "God's Only Begotten Son," "The Alpha and Omega,".
Upon his death, he was resurrected.

I've known for a long time about these similarities and there are, in fact, others. What I didn't know was the reason why, and that's why I'm finding Acharya's theories about an allegory of astrological phenonemena interesting.
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Postby Minimalist » Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:28 pm

Ishtar wrote:
Minimalist wrote:
Oh...and while Bethlehem was in the newly formed praefecture of Judaea, Nazareth was not. It was in Galilee and remained firmly under the control of Herod Antipas.


Min, I thought Nazereth didn't exist at that time?



A whole other kettle of fish but even if it did the citizens of Nazareth were not subject to a Roman census in Judaea. It would be like Canadians trekking to the US because we were having a census or vice versa.
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