Seeker, if you're not going to field this one, may 1?
Forum Monk wrote:
In fact your desperation was so great you ended up proving that the bible contains Gnostic doctrine.
Not at all. Your claim is that reference contains gnostic doctrine. So it is your burden of proof. Logos=christ emerged well after the gospels.
How could it have emerged "well after
the gospels", Monk, when John, in the original Greek says, right in the first sentence: "In the beginning was the Logos, the Logos was God and the Logos was with God."
Later on in John 10, Jesus says "I and my father are one". And as we know Jesus was the son of God, he is obviously referring to God, his father, the Logos, meaning he and his father are one and the same, the Logos.
You can't get any clearer than that.... and it's pure Gnostic teaching as taught by Philo and the Greek philosophers like Heraclitus (535–475 BC) before him.
Heraclitus established the term in Western philosophy as meaning both the source and fundamental order of the cosmos...... After Judaism came under Hellenistic influence, Philo adopted the term into Jewish philosophy. The Gospel of John identifies Jesus as the incarnation of the Logos, through which all things are made. The gospel further identifies the Logos as God (theos).
Also, this might interest you (it's written by Christians!)
It is now widely believed among Jewish scholars that Phariseeism, Sadduceeism and the Pre-Gnostic cults which appeared in the second century BCE were a result of a syncretism of Hellenistic philosophy (in particular Platonism) and various Jewish beliefs . Likewise, it is now widely accepted that even though fully developed Gnosticism did not appear until the beginning of the second century AD, pre-Gnosticism was present in the second century BC. This syncretism is clearly seen in the parallelism of the Rabbinic writings, the Old Testament apocrypha, Philo, and the writings of the Greco-Roman philosophers. It is further attested to by the Greco-Roman gifts that decorated Herod’s temple which were donated by Caesar, and the Greco-Roman mosaics that decorated the synagogues. ....
Even though post-apostolic Christian writers struggled with the question of the identity of Jesus and the Logos, the Church’s doctrine that Jesus was the Logos never changed. Each of the first six councils, from the First Council of Nicea (325) to the Third Council of Constantinople (680-681) defined Jesus Christ as fully God and fully human.. Christianity did not accept the Platonic argument that the spirit is good and the flesh is evil, and that therefore the man Jesus could not be God. Neither did it accept any of the Platonic beliefs that would have made Jesus something less than fully God and fully human at the same time. The original teaching of John’s gospel is, "In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God . . . And the Logos became flesh and dwelt among us". (The Greek rules of grammar determine the correct word order in English.)
I would like to add that although the Christians that wrote the above say: " Likewise, it is now widely accepted that even though fully developed Gnosticism did not appear until the beginning of the second century AD", they omit to mention that neither was there any trace of Literalist Christianity until that time, and in fact, they are dating the Gnostics to those Literalists attacking them - in other words, Literalists and Gnostics are neck-and-neck when it comes to attestation.