The Boat Post

The study of religious or heroic legends and tales. One constant rule of mythology is that whatever happens amongst the gods or other mythical beings was in one sense or another a reflection of events on earth. Recorded myths and legends, perhaps preserved in literature or folklore, have an immediate interest to archaeology in trying to unravel the nature and meaning of ancient events and traditions.

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Ishtar
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Post by Ishtar » Tue Sep 09, 2008 4:19 am

John

I love reading your posts, and I thought your explanation to Patti was brilliant and really made me chuckle.

But if you're not going to talk about mythology or religion, imo your thread doesn't belong in this section and I can't figure out what it's doing here.
:(

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Post by kbs2244 » Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:11 am

Another problem is that the realization of the difference in sea level is pretty recent.
For centuries sea level was thought of as a constant.
Because of this, sea travel distances were thought of in the present terms.
But if the sea level was 400 feet lower, then the various land mass were much closer, and easier to get to.
As the sea levels increased, so did the sailing expertise, so when it got to the present levels, it was no big deal.
The same trip may now take a few days longer, but we still know where we are going.

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Post by kbs2244 » Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:16 am

Ish:
90% of the people of the world think the sea is a mythical place.
Those that travel on it without fear are the gods of myth.
And sailors have just a few traditions and ritualisms.
But there is some science involved.

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Post by pattylt » Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:38 am

Thanks for all the explanations! John, that was delightful to read, thank you. So, I guess my next question is, "what do the no-boaters use as defense of the inability of HE to be intelligent enough to build a boat"? Are they using brain size? Or do they have evidence of HE's "inability" to be that smart? Seems that if we have evidence of habitation on islands that can only ever have been reached by boat, especially with lower sea levels, that is pretty good evidence that they got there somehow. Do they think they swam? Rafted (because that isn't technically a boat? :lol: ) Or do they think they spontaneously generated there? Husband and pregnant wife washed out to sea and landed there? Or do they play dumb on the subject and just keep insisting they weren't really there? As scientists, I have a hard time believing that they would turn their backs on this. I would think they would love to embrace a change in old dogma and throw themselves at challenging the older ideas. Guess that is just me, I love it when new evidence throws new light on old accepted knowledge, in any area!
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Boats

Post by Cognito » Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:49 am

But if you're not going to talk about mythology or religion ...
Ish, I believe John is delving into ancient mythology and religion when he approaches the origin of cognition as evidenced by early boats. To even consider building a boat (i.e. a transportation device) you must first know where you are to figure out where you are going (i.e. navigation). The knowledge of self as being distinct and unique with the ability to overcome environmental challenges represents a huge leap in cognition.

I will take a leap by stating that any hominid embarking on a boat voyage for the first time will invoke the protection of the gods before casting off. Mythology as a follow up is a given. I'll bet HE's religious beliefs were not all that different from HSS during the late Pleistocene. :shock:
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Post by Minimalist » Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:56 am

Ishtar wrote:John

I love reading your posts, and I thought your explanation to Patti was brilliant and really made me chuckle.

But if you're not going to talk about mythology or religion, imo your thread doesn't belong in this section and I can't figure out what it's doing here.
:(

More than trade goods traveled by boat. Ideas also went along for the ride.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Post by Ishtar » Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:46 pm

OK, then... I can see that. But you guys will talk about boats anywhere, anyhow because it's your favourite subject. However, if we are going to be talking about them in this section of the board, we should be talking about boats in relation to whether they were responsible for the spread of myths and spiritual practises, which so far, I don't see happening. I mean, even Cogs is in here ... and lovely though it is to see him, I know he isn't in here for any mythology. :D

So ... in the spirit of that discussion, I humbly offer this:

A Light Brighter Than A Thousand Suns

When shamans travel into other dimensions, they see a sun that's a thousand times brighter than the sun we see around us on earth. And while we cannot look at this earthly sun without blinding ourselves, shamans can look straight into the light of the other worldly sun, and not only does it not blind them, but it is also healing and soothing.

All shamans from wherever they are in the world report this same sun, brighter than a thousand suns, the sun Arjuna talks about in the Bhagavad Gita when Krishna reveals to him his true form. This sun is also described by Apuleius in The Metamorphosis, as seen by one undergoing initiation at the Eleusinian Mysteries: "At midnight, I saw the sun shining with a splendid light; and I manifestly drew near to the gods beneath and the gods above, and proximately adored them."

This sun is so bright that, on returning to this dimension, our earthly sun seems like a pale reflection of it, as do the earthly trees, which just look like limp weeds almost, in comparison to the huge, soaring lush trees of the Forest of Despair - the first port of call all shamans come to when carrying souls at death to the place they all describe so similarly, the Realms of the Dead. Just like our trees on earth absorb the carbon di oxide that is our waste product, and transform it, so these other-worldly enormous trees absorb the despair of those who died in grief or in suffering, so that they can leave it there in that forest and carry on without that burden to their next destination.

All shamans talk about this enormous, bright sun and this forest of huge, towering trees that make our own look like reflections of the real thing, in the same way that Plato said that man is trapped in a cave and just looking at flickering shadows on a wall.

All shamans report this same phenomena ... they journey light years away to see it, and do this all without boats, or any other kind of normal transport.

So if they can get to furthest reaches of our own known universe, and then slip through a wormwhole to go even further than that, and all this in just a few seconds, would it not be possible for a shaman in South America, say, to visit a shaman in Alaska... and with no need of a boat?



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Post by Ishtar » Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:23 pm

The Sunless Sea

In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure-dome decree :
Where Alph, the sacred river, ran
Through caverns measureless to man
Down to a sunless sea.

So twice five miles of fertile ground
With walls and towers were girdled round :
And there were gardens bright with sinuous rills,
Where blossomed many an incense-bearing tree ;
And here were forests ancient as the hills,
Enfolding sunny spots of greenery.

Khubla Khan by Samuel Coleridge

You know what I'm going to say, I expect.

Many shamans report the river running down to the sunless sea.

Flying across it, it's a dark, almost black sea with waves running across it silently, and even the moonlight in the dense, velvet-black sky doesn't reflect on it.



.

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Mythology

Post by Cognito » Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:11 pm

I mean, even Cogs is in here ... and lovely though it is to see him, I know he isn't in here for any mythology.:D
Oh, Princess, thou art brazen!

You understimate me, my dear. Even though I promote a maritime bent, my presence here is due to John's comments on the ancient emergence of cognition which is critical to the formation of mythology. Further, the only books I have or will read more than once happen to be the Baghavad Gita and Upanishads. And more further, "At midnight, I saw the sun shining with a splendid light; and I manifestly drew near to the gods beneath and the gods above, and proximately adored them." is not foreign to me (grasp the clue). 8)

All my love,
Patrick
Natural selection favors the paranoid

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Re: Mythology

Post by Ishtar » Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:16 pm

Cognito wrote:
I mean, even Cogs is in here ... and lovely though it is to see him, I know he isn't in here for any mythology.:D
Oh, Princess, thou art brazen!

You understimate me, my dear. Even though I promote a maritime bent, my presence here is due to John's comments on the ancient emergence of cognition which is critical to the formation of mythology. Further, the only books I have or will read more than once happen to be the Baghavad Gita and Upanishads. And more further, "At midnight, I saw the sun shining with a splendid light; and I manifestly drew near to the gods beneath and the gods above, and proximately adored them." is not foreign to me (grasp the clue). 8)

All my love,
Patrick
I'm thrilled to hear it!

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It's just that we don't usually have the pleasure of your company in here.

But now that you're here ... please do draw yourself up a comfy chair, take this glass of delicious honeyed mead and please tell us all that you know about the sun at midnight.

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Post by Minimalist » Tue Sep 09, 2008 4:33 pm

But you guys will talk about boats anywhere, anyhow because it's your favourite subject.

It's not so much that it is a favorite subject but one simply must admit that travel by sea ( OR river!) was safer, faster and cheaper than travel by land throughout most of human history...and pre-history. Egyptian civilization thrived for 3 millenia without developing a road network because the Nile was their best transport system.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

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Post by Ishtar » Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:54 pm

Yes, true. But my point is that one can also be transported without transport.



PS If you're wondering why I'm still up, it's because I just heard that the world's going to end tomorrow. That particle thingy under the earth in Switzerland is going to be fired up for the first time tomorrow, and some people say that we're all going to disappear down a black hole, or something.

Anyway, in case that's true, I'm making the most of now. Carpe diem and all that.

. :lol:

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Post by john » Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:21 pm

Ishtar wrote:John

I love reading your posts, and I thought your explanation to Patti was brilliant and really made me chuckle.

But if you're not going to talk about mythology or religion, imo your thread doesn't belong in this section and I can't figure out what it's doing here.
:(
Ishtar -

What the first Very Early Hominid said

To the other first Very Early Hominid who

Was walking - kinda - around on the ground:

"You're out of your tree".

That statement persists to this day -

Just keep it as a mental sidebar.

And, not playing wordgames here; I'll make the statement

That mythology, religion, folklore

And shamanism

Are all cognates of cognition.

Personally, I have no interest as to what category

This thread is assigned to -

That's up to Michelle.

However, I see an evolutionary sequence within

Cognition which leads squarely to the leaderboard

Subjects of this thread.

Now, big challenge with cognition is -

Aside from identifiable, physical sequences of

Developing Techne,

Is where do new ideas come from?

Sequencing Techne seems to me to be invariably

After the fact.

For example, a certain Homo n. one day found a

Cool straight branch which had been broken from a tree

In such a matter that it had a pretty sharp point.

Being hungry, he tried it out on a nearby mammoth

And promptly got hurled by the enraged beast

About fifty feet into a bunch of shrubbery,

Which had major thorns.

His deductive reasoning from this event might have

Been as follows:

Hmmm, I got to tune this pointy branch up to the next level.

And I'm going to try Branch Mark II on something smaller,

Like a Red Deer.

My focus is on the inductive reasoning - cognition -

Which allowed Mr. Homo n. to postulate an entire series of

Actions and Events concerning said pointy branch

Prior to the actual execution of said actions and events.

Something I've been looking for, but haven't found

Is similar to the genetic statistical analysis of

The Mitochondrial Mom of Us All, as applied the the cognitive.

It makes sense to me that the cognitive would "mutate"

Within a statistically verifiable range.

Therefore, one could backtrack to the

Theoretical "dawn" of cognition, which then

Could be related to actual Hominid remains.

No joy, so far,

And I am not a mathematician.

Nonetheless, I will make the point again that

Everything en pointe in this thread is

Driven by many thousands of years of

The phenomenon of cognition in its

Inductive sense, despite latter cheap and shabby

Deductive power grabs by Religion/Politics/Economics.


hoka hey

john


ps.

Minimalist, I know yr. gonna say it.

"BOATS, HEMATITE"
"Man is a marvellous curiosity. When he is at his very, very best he is sort of a low-grade nickel-plated angel; at his worst he is unspeakable, unimaginable; and first and last and all the time he is a sarcasm."

Mark Twain

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Post by Minimalist » Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:46 pm

PS If you're wondering why I'm still up, it's because I just heard that the world's going to end tomorrow.

Damn French, huh?
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

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Post by Minimalist » Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:49 pm

Still with us Ish?
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

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