Smiling faces...

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Smiling faces...

Postby daybrown » Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:30 am

I see the menu of smilies next to this text box. We seem instinctively to know what they mean, and anthropologists have gone into remote stone age tribes to see if they have the same response. which they largely do.

Dr. Paul Ekman took that one step further, and studied the facial expressions of monkeys. Who have many of the same facial gestures. Monkeys cannot lie. their response to a situation is always truthfully written on the face.

With high speed video, he discovered that when a hominid tries to deceive, these original primate facial gestures are still there, but then written over 200 milliseconds later as the prefrontal lobe calculates the desired expression. Its not somthing a practiced liar can control; its an autonomic response.

Now, because so often men have relied on brute force to control situations, women have evolved the intuition to understand male motivation, and based on subtle clues of facial expression, been able to react even before the warrior knows he will strike out. Simple Darwinian response.

So- from ancient times, women, and some of the more beta men, who also need this talent, have applied it to their contacts with the warrior class, be it barbarians, or kings. Ekman reports that some people are intuitive enough to detect 80% of the attempted lies. You can see how useful this would be in business or political negotiations.

The historians know nothing about it. Sun Tzu seems to have a handle on it in his advice to know thyself, and then understand thy enemy. The natural response of the warrior is to objectify his enemy so that he does not regard the enemy as a human being, and will therefore not empathize or feel the pain he causes. Or suffer the guilt. PTSD.

Pick one: you can objectify, in which case you need to use force to control what they do, or you can understand, know what they will do before they themselves even know, and take the minimal action needed, if any, to deal; with it.

The Vedas & Chinese texts understand the usefulness of non-action. And they understand as well the usefulness of the Buddha face, which does not change at all no matter what you tell it. Hence the Orientals have been known as inscrutable.

This had a lot to do with the success of the Aryan Amazons, whose maternal instincts served well in the livestock business, and their descendants still have an instinctive love for horses. And if you go to a meet where they pit teams of oxen against each other, the teamsters are all adolescent white girls. Kin.

In like manner, they understood the body language and facial gestures of the warrior nations all around them. And because of this, they were repeatedly able to kick ass. But because of their own innate love for the cowgirl life, as soon as the Steppes greened up again, they were back to their home on range where the antelope & aurochs roam.

And today, some of their daughters are still among us, and if you try to lie to them, they'll rip you a new asshole.
Any god watching me hasta be bored, and needs to get a life.
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Re: Smiling faces...

Postby Rokcet Scientist » Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:44 am

daybrown wrote:
And today, some of their daughters are still among us, and if you try to lie to them, they'll rip you a new asshole.



We don't appreciate being threatened, db. That is terrorizing. And fascism.
Threaten us again, and I'll rip YOU a new asshole!
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Re: Smiling faces...

Postby Manystones » Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:16 am

daybrown wrote:Dr. Paul Ekman took that one step further, and studied the facial expressions of monkeys. Who have many of the same facial gestures. Monkeys cannot lie. their response to a situation is always truthfully written on the face.


Actually they do have the ability to mask emotions, but an interesting post nonetheless. See pp5-8.

http://web.uccs.edu/fcoolidg/Hodgson%20 ... mments.pdf

Slightly off the subject of smilies I can't resist the temptation to draw attention to the "pebble mask" on my website, testifying to the early use of visual ambiguity by our hominid ancestors.
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Postby Minimalist » Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:56 am

Ekman reports that some people are intuitive enough to detect 80% of the attempted lies.



But, I submit, not a majority of the American electorate!
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Postby daybrown » Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:41 am

Agreed the majority are fools. A big problem we have is that they select the leadership. IIRC, Ekman thinks that 5% are good lie detectors.

I hate .pdf; painfully slow. I didnt have the patience to read it all. And certainly deception goes way back, but now, these new technologies are going to change everything.

Show a suspect a photo, and whether he wants to or not, his amygdala will search thru memory for a similar pattern, and before the prefrontal lobes will be able to figure out whether it wants to admit familiarity, the autonomic system has already responded. EEG will pick up on the change in brain waves. FMRI will spot the areas of memory that are triggered with a familair image. Torture is obsolete.

And I wonder why it is that the social scientists, neurologists, and psychologists have not let the government and CIA know. Ancients had psychoactive potions that were, and still are, very effective. It was commonly used in sacred ritual to build trust, and as a result, they didnt have nearly the problem with "backsliding".

In the deserts of Central Asia, the cold dry conditions preserved organic matter, and they've found the cannabis, ephedra, & opium people were buried with. No doubt as useful then at exposing bullshit artists, as they still are. A smile just wont cut it.

And the neurological explanation of Ekman explains why. Mallory, "In Search of the Indo-Europeans" reports that the only PIE word for an authority figure is "raj". Which, he says is "a female tribal leader of great wisdom and mana." A raj, is a witch. And with psychoactive potions, able to detect deception.

This had an enormous effect on power structures, and explained a lot about why witches were so vigorously persecuted by the warrior class and its kings, who we know were responsible for the most deception. Still are.

The use of entheogens among the Greeks gave them a level of trust and an ability to organize that produced remarkable military success. But the reason the phalanx was so successful was not because of heroic alpha males, so willing to step out front and take on all comers, but because of the beta males who knew how to stay in line, and listen to the orders of the CO with a horn telling them when to step back and let the next rank have a go with fresh arm muscles.

One of the clues that Greek theater provides, is that they know that the face is a mask. And many of the stone raps they left us, like the Symposium, had to do with what was going on behind the mask. "Beware of Greeks bearing gifts." was said by a woman. And the female intuition needed to survive the impulsive abuse of alpha males is why women are both the most dangerous liars, and the most able detectives.

Because the alpha males rely on force to control others, they dont care what you think. And because they dont care, they cant figure it out, and use the tools they do understand, weapons.

There are two places that come to mind where weapons werent adequate. One, when women got on horses and could ride away into the vastness of the Steppes. The other is the oasis towns of the Taklamakhan, where all that was necessary was to take a shit in the few waterholes enroute to one of their cities. It was said that the road to Kucha was clearly marked by the bones of the armies that tried to go there.

In both cases where weapons were no longer adequate, the cultures were run by women. No doubt lie detection was the critical advantage.
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Postby Minimalist » Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:27 am

There's another possibility. They KNOW they are being lied to and don't care. As long as it's the right "lie."
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Postby Digit » Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:39 am

One of our 'TV Personalities' recently addressed an MP as 'you sit in that place with the leather seats don't you?'.
In a a sensible society people would have to prove they were aware of political issues and be licenced to vote. But that of coure is 'undemocratic'!
Unfortunately politics now are driven by 'Spin', the word 'Spin' is in its self a means of avoiding the truth by defining a lie as 'Spin'.
We currently have an outbreak of Foot & Mouth Disease and a government official informed us that it was probably caused by the recent flooding of the area, and this was taken up by the press.
I'm now waiting for the Government to explain to me how water can cause any disease.
The latest suggestion is that the disease has 'escaped' (love that idea) from a nearby GOVERNMENT reasearch establishment.
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Postby Barracuda » Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:07 pm

And today, some of their daughters are still among us, and if you try to lie to them, they'll rip you a new asshole.


I've always had a weakness for cowgirls!

My theory about women is:

"Some girls don't like boys like me, but some girls do!"
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Postby daybrown » Sat Aug 11, 2007 4:17 am

Sometime, prolly soon, someone will show http://www.paulekman.com/ to a jounalist. who will then bring a camera man with a high speed video camera with a zoom lense to a press conference.

And, if zie has armed themselves with the right questions, at the right time, will expose the lies within minutes of them being told, and post the video clips on the Internet.

I havent seen the sales on Ekman's work, nor can I evaluate how effectively his methods are applied. I can say that I have found them personnally useful, and can see how, all thru history, those who were innately gifted in this way were able to advance their agendas and avoid disaster.

The new lie detection techniques are yet another element destabilizing the political systems. Jack Nicholson as the general, "You want the truth? You cant handle the truth." comes to mind.

I dunno how many lies it takes to oil the wheels of what passes for civilization, but without them, it'll need new bearings.
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