North American Neanderthals

The Western Hemisphere. General term for the Americas following their discovery by Europeans, thus setting them in contradistinction to the Old World of Africa, Europe, and Asia.

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E.P. Grondine

Re: North American Neanderthals

Post by E.P. Grondine » Tue May 24, 2011 6:52 pm

Hi all -

My APOLOGIES for my earlier comments on this topic - I did not see the b0006 distribution map in unifaces initial link.

This led to my earlier assumption that b0006 was associated with X mt DNA haplogroup, coming via that channel from HH to North America.

First off haplotypes have not been of much use in tracking population movements, due to interbreeding obscuring movements. That said,

Assuming that the b0006 work is accurate...

Unless HN maritime technology is found, which may be submergered right now, then my working assumption currently is that b0006 survived from HH among HSS C and A mt DNA haplogroups. Of course, correlation studies would be nice.

A higher resolution map so that the South American b0006 distribution could be seen better would be helpful.

I'm pretty sure that uniface has already prepared a distribution map for finds of possible HN tools in eastern North America.

Aside from that. this genetic evidence may be the wooden stake driven into the heart of the Clovis first hypothesis.

Me, I'm just wondering when Hibben is going to be re-habilitated. Kind of reminds me of the period when Khrushchev took power.

In closing, as always, I reserve the right to be wrong both now and in the future.

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Cognito
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Re: North American Neanderthals

Post by Cognito » Wed May 25, 2011 9:44 pm

Based on the decimation of Native American populations due to diseases introduced by Europeans et al, I wouldn't rule out many archaic population surprises in years to come. The current mainstream genetic story appears to have too many holes for comfort.

Since most genetic analysis in the western hemisphere is based on mtDNA analyses (since mtDNA remnants produce about 100 times as much DNA as nuclear remnants), opening up autosomal studies such as those pioneered by Svante Paabo with the HSN genome will put a final stake in the heart of Clovis First. And not a day to soon!

Genetic inheritance of yDNA and mtDNA is an all or nothing affair. If a man has no male children, his yDNA exits the gene pool. If a woman has no female children, her mtDNA does the same. Only autosomal DNA which recombines will provide traces of archaic populations hitherto unseen.
Natural selection favors the paranoid

E.P. Grondine

Re: North American Neanderthals

Post by E.P. Grondine » Mon May 30, 2011 10:22 am

Cognito,

My experience is that operationally, for popluation movements and evolutions, at this point in the development of humam genetic studies,
it is best to use mt DNA haplogroups.

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Cognito
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Re: North American Neanderthals

Post by Cognito » Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:38 pm

Actually EP, that is what is currently used, but at a disadvantage. Until Svante Paabo began performing autosomal analysis on the Neanderthal Genome it was unprovable whether Europeans were part Neanderthal or not since no mtDNA survived the hybridization. Paabo was able to validate that individuals outside of Africa contain from 1% to 4% Neanderthal DNA in their autosomes. Their lab did the same two-step on Denisovan DNA and came up with the unusual conclusion that some Malays are 10% Denisovan. A similar analysis has yet to be performed on Native Americans.

With regard to the last sentence above, nobody has yet explained why there are five haplogroups of mtDNA found in Native American populations and only one predominant yDNA haplogroup with its sub-group. Again, that tells me that we continue to miss a big part of the picture. With regard to autosomal DNA, there is every possibility that an older, extinct population (or populations) of hominids occupied the Americas prior to mtDNA A, B, C, D and X showing up. It certainly would explain the occasional anomalous finds that defy explanation.
Natural selection favors the paranoid

E.P. Grondine

Re: North American Neanderthals

Post by E.P. Grondine » Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:49 pm

Hi Cognito -

I suspect that their Homo Denisova is in fact a Homo Heidelbergensis variant, well known at Penang, Malaysia at 1.8 mya, so the residual in modern Malay HSS is fairly easily explained.

As far as Native American genetics goes, I would expect that the D and B mt haplogroups would reflect HD autosomal influence. But we'll see.

There are two rare types of physical remains found in the Americas: those of the Savanah River peoples (Ocanachee and Yuchi), and those of the Andaste. Neither is currently mapped to a DNA level.

The third rare group is likely to be Nakota (Assiniboine) DNA, perhaps preserving some Ainu ancestry, or perhaps not.

This is simply my best estimate, and as always I retain the right to be wrong both now and in the future.

The wiki link on Denisova was concise and very informative.

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john
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Re: North American Neanderthals

Post by john » Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:16 pm

Nice precis of the subject by Milford Wolpoff.........

http://journalofcosmology.com/Consciousness161.html

John
"Man is a marvellous curiosity. When he is at his very, very best he is sort of a low-grade nickel-plated angel; at his worst he is unspeakable, unimaginable; and first and last and all the time he is a sarcasm."

Mark Twain

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