More Evidence to Support the Solutrean Hypothesis

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Re: More Evidence to Support the Solutrean Hypothesis

Postby Farpoint » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:01 pm

Minimalist wrote:Agreed and I can't ever recall Stanford suggesting "migration."


me either

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Re: More Evidence to Support the Solutrean Hypothesis

Postby uniface » Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:31 am

So how'd the stuff get here ?
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Re: More Evidence to Support the Solutrean Hypothesis

Postby E.P. Grondine » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:04 am

uniface wrote:So how'd the stuff get here ?


Like I told you, from South America.

See jobo blades on page 4 here:
http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journ ... taima.html
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Re: More Evidence to Support the Solutrean Hypothesis

Postby uniface » Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:56 pm

That's still a long way from the Mediterranean :mrgreen:
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Re: More Evidence to Support the Solutrean Hypothesis

Postby Minimalist » Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:04 pm

uniface wrote:So how'd the stuff get here ?



Sporadic hunters working their way along the edge of the ice does not constitute a migration. Migration implies some sort of intention to go from one place to another. For all we know 3 guys in a boat reached Maryland, went ashore to stretch their legs, pick up some stone to make some new tools, have a bite to eat and maybe take a dump. Then they hopped back in their boat and went back to where the seals were.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Re: More Evidence to Support the Solutrean Hypothesis

Postby uniface » Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:58 pm

There are precious few toolstone sources between Britain and Canada.

On the assumption that they'd be as highly adapted to taking seals as the later Inuit were, they wouldn't even need stone for that job.

That's one of the uncomfortable objections to the theory -- within a generation they'd have stopped making stone tools because there was no stone where they were to make them from. They would have had to really scoot over here.

And not to be a bigger ass than seems unavoidable, but any time you're taking women and kids with you -- and in numbers sufficient to maintain your population -- you're migrating.
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Re: More Evidence to Support the Solutrean Hypothesis

Postby Minimalist » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:43 pm

Which is why I reject the idea of a "migration."

BTW, knowledge is transferable. One guy can show another guy how to do some flint knapping in a new way. Assuming that the receiving group was already using stone tools it would probably take less time than it would take to teach us to do it from scratch.

Now, were we suddenly to find some Solutrean-style tools in South America...say opposite the shortest crossing point from Africa...it would lend credence to E.P.'s "up from the south idea." Speaking only for myself and looking at the winds and currents that seems to me a highly likely crossing point but scientific evidence is needed. Right now, we have Solutrean style tools in So. France / Spain and Mid-Atlantic America. They can't be dismissed because they are inconvenient.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Re: More Evidence to Support the Solutrean Hypothesis

Postby uniface » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:56 pm

1) It may well have been "up from" South America. But if they came from Spain by way of Africa, it would have made the trip an even longer one.

2) The "somebody just showed the natives how" idea -- while attractive -- is anthropologically unsound ; nearly without precedent in the record.

People with "primative" technologies/cultures were characterised by intense, intransigent conservatism. E.g., an Australian anthropologist had Bordes over for a conference there. Thinking it might be of interest to the local Blackfellows who were still making stone tools, he invited them to watch B's demonstration.

The longer they watched, the angrier they got. Finally they stormed away in a huff.

Asked why they were so angry, they told the anthro, "He's doing it ALL WRONG !"

This is the underlying reason why it's so relatively easy to place US projectile points in their proper time frames. Change wasn't even glacial ; it was more like punctuated equalibrium.

Only when the difference involved was huge (agriculture, pottery, steel tools) did entrenched people demonstrate receptivity to change.
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Re: More Evidence to Support the Solutrean Hypothesis

Postby E.P. Grondine » Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:42 am

uniface wrote:1) It may well have been "up from" South America. But if they came from Spain by way of Africa, it would have made the trip an even longer one.


Not by boat. See my book for accidental trips from West Africa to South America by fishermen.

uniface wrote:2) The "somebody just showed the natives how" idea -- while attractive -- is anthropologically unsound ; nearly without precedent in the record.


"If it works, don't fool with it." is usually a pretty good oprerating principle, but if "it" does not work all that well...

I will also note here that facing a raging mammoth or mastodon was likely to quicken the mind, and thus make people more receptive to adopting new technologies.
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Re: More Evidence to Support the Solutrean Hypothesis

Postby uniface » Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:09 pm

I've read your book, EP. There's a lit of intriguing information in it.

But in this case, I don't "see" it being as plausible as drifting along the edge of an icepack teeming with free dinners.

What's possible (like Liberty & Justice for All) and what's available are two different affairs. Same probably circumscribes your "learning from the newcomers" model.

And when you extend that notion on a continental scale, with nothing significant getting bent, folded, stapled or mutilated, it passes credence.
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Re: More Evidence to Support the Solutrean Hypothesis

Postby Minimalist » Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:24 pm

"If it works, don't fool with it." is usually a pretty good oprerating principle, but if "it" does not work all that well...

I will also note here that facing a raging mammoth or mastodon was likely to quicken the mind, and thus make people more receptive to adopting new technologies.



I was discussing this issue with our old pal Rokcet Scientist via email the other day. He suggested that Solutreans who arrived here would have found a paradise and would start hunting mastodons. I countered that a group which was used to hunting slow fat seals on an ice pack might crap their loin cloths at the sight of a mastodon coming at them and quickly run back to their boats in search of seals.

But, if there were people here already hunting mastodon they might be perfectly willing to adopt a superior technology to help them do so. So I agree with E.P. ( rare, I know!) that survival technologies have a way of demonstrating their value. You know, people had been firing muzzle-loading weapons for centuries but as soon as breach-loaders became feasible the muskets were tossed on the scrap heap in short order.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Re: More Evidence to Support the Solutrean Hypothesis

Postby uniface » Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:30 pm

FWIW, people in (and around) Bedford County Pa. were still using and making (from scratch) muzzleloaders during the 1930s Depression. Store bought ammunition was expensive. Black powder and caps weren't.
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Re: More Evidence to Support the Solutrean Hypothesis

Postby hardaker » Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:25 pm

donno where the southern origins evidence is coming from if the stuff showing up in delmarva is 10k years older than Taima(2).
Late Pleistocene upland stratigraphy of the western Delmarva Peninsula,USA DarrinL.Lowerya, MichaelA.O’Neala,b,*, JohnS.Wahc, DanielP.Wagnerd, DennisJ.Stanford
QuaternaryScienceReviews(2010),doi:10.1016/j.quascirev.2010.03.007
pdf
Chris Hardaker
The First American: The Suppressed Story of the People Who Discovered the New World [ https://www.amazon.com/First-American-S ... 1564149420 ]
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Re: More Evidence to Support the Solutrean Hypothesis

Postby Minimalist » Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:59 pm

uniface wrote:FWIW, people in (and around) Bedford County Pa. were still using and making (from scratch) muzzleloaders during the 1930s Depression. Store bought ammunition was expensive. Black powder and caps weren't.



Was the army?
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Re: More Evidence to Support the Solutrean Hypothesis

Postby E.P. Grondine » Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:47 pm

uniface wrote:
I've read your book, EP. There's a lot of intriguing information in it.

But in this case, I don't "see" it being as plausible as drifting along the edge of an icepack teeming with free dinners.

What's possible (like Liberty & Justice for All) and what's available are two different affairs. Same probably circumscribes your "learning from the newcomers" model.

And when you extend that notion on a continental scale, with nothing significant getting bent, folded, stapled or mutilated, it passes credence.


Hi uniface,

There's also a lot of later data that did not make it into my book. Perhaps it will make it into a second edition.

You "go" with the edge of an icepack teeming with free dinners; I "go" with warm tropical waters teeming with free dinners. Now that may be a personal bias, but...

My hypothesis, based on what data I am currently aware of, is that the Ocanachee and Yuchi peoples were descendants of the Savanah River peoples, who came to South America from North Africa, and from there into North America. To my knowledge, so few Ocanachee and Yuchi descendants remain that their mt DNA has never been studied.

As you know, for over the last 8 years I have been talking about the First Peoples' memories of an impact event which killed about 95% of the people living in North America. And other "smaller" impact events as well.

What I've found is that as far as "credence" goes, a whole lot of people confuse their beliefs with data.
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