Problematic Discoveries

The Western Hemisphere. General term for the Americas following their discovery by Europeans, thus setting them in contradistinction to the Old World of Africa, Europe, and Asia.

Moderators: Minimalist, MichelleH

Post Reply
Springhead
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:50 am

Re: Problematic Discoveries

Post by Springhead » Mon Feb 08, 2016 6:24 am

Lily,

Thanks for your observations. My thought is that though art appreciation may be ruled by a different set of parameters than the sciences, it still possesses a validity that when joined with science completes a balanced approach to archaeology as much of the evidence of the past is art related. When evidence is found in scientific endeavor, artists are immediately utilized to record the visual aspects of the work to communicate it to the public and professionals. It may be that the reverse of this process, i.e. art initiated insights about past evidence followed by a scientific analysis, is as valid as the art expertise following the professional theories. If art depends on fantasy, then the scientist must address this fantasy to understand subjects at hand from the past.

Tiompan
Posts: 1140
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 5:13 am

Re: Problematic Discoveries

Post by Tiompan » Mon Feb 08, 2016 7:47 am

Springhead , you might be interested in http://www.amazon.com/Figuring-It-Out-C ... 0500051143 .
Caveat , not about rock art , which is a bit of a misnomer .

Springhead
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:50 am

Re: Problematic Discoveries

Post by Springhead » Mon Feb 08, 2016 9:16 am

Thanks Tiompan,

From the description about the book this seems very appropriate to this discussion, albeit not rock art specifically. I would think any illumination of artist/archaeologist relationships in the process of understanding human response to the environment is a positive and realistic step in pre historic assessments. I appreciate the information and look forward to what should be a good read. Perhaps this will aid in a go forward strategy after the rather gentle beating I have taken.

Springhead
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:50 am

Re: Problematic Discoveries

Post by Springhead » Mon Feb 08, 2016 3:55 pm

Thanks Lily,

I was more focused on the "gentle" part of that phrase. I certainly feel well treated and engaged on this forum, and I greatly appreciate all feedback. Perhaps a poor word choice again. However, I have discovered a heretofore unknown occupation and accompanying assemblage that I very much believe to be authentic and important. Reality for me is to digest and understand what I have chanced upon, however inept that process may appear to others. I greatly respect the knowledge and expertise of my critics and welcome thoughts and advice from them. I do not profess to possess professional grade skills in the world of archaeology, but I was not born in the woods either. Wide travel to numerous archaeological sites (hundreds), a life of wide experience, and healthy common sense have delivered me to this point in time. Now I apply this experience and common sense to something I am confronted with, and until my intuitions tell me otherwise, I will continue to work for an understanding. Rainbows and unicorns? Don't forget windmills!

Springhead
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:50 am

Re: Problematic Discoveries

Post by Springhead » Wed Feb 10, 2016 6:00 am

I have spoken with the archaeologist I have been working with, and he continues to enthusiastically support my work and his own work on numerous sites and inquiries/further investigations. His name is William Jack Hranicky. He has just gotten his web site back up which includes his bio and features a number of recent books he has published. Contact information is also available on that site, and he is willing to discuss his work: www.archeology.org

I look forward to working with Jack as the weather improves. He is very busy fielding requests around Virginia for his expertise regarding possible Pleistocene sites and maintaining research and investigation with several existing projects to include my own. I hope Jack's expertise will slow down the outright rejections of the existence of this noted assemblage and perhaps allow more measured and considered response.

Springhead
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:50 am

Re: Problematic Discoveries

Post by Springhead » Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:18 am

Lily,
Jack is aware of the criticism I have received on this topic. He mentioned that he was familiar with the forum and is open to talking to critics of the assemblage. I have not yet asked him to write me a letter of introduction with support, but I think that would be fine with him, though that is his decision. I will address that matter when I have done more ground work in deciding who to approach and when.

Minimalist
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15752
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Problematic Discoveries

Post by Minimalist » Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:01 am

I will address that matter when I have done more ground work in deciding who to approach and when.
And that's important because you do want to find someone who is at least open to the possibility you're raising.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin

Tiompan
Posts: 1140
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 5:13 am

Re: Problematic Discoveries

Post by Tiompan » Wed Feb 10, 2016 1:50 pm

Springhead ,

Just had a look at Jack's web page .
Would you happen to know the co-ordinates for the Spout Run " circles " . The best I could find was 39.05°N 77.89°W which is not much use .
Also noticed that the "rock art " at the site was also described as Pareidolia see http://www.clarkedailynews.com/archaeol ... ite/29289/.
In fairness the pics were poor .

Springhead
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:50 am

Re: Problematic Discoveries

Post by Springhead » Wed Feb 10, 2016 5:42 pm

Minimalist,

Yes, I need to find the right institution or group open to these ideas which may be quite a task. I will probably start that process in Virginia and possibly on the coast of NC where I live. Jack will be a big help with ideas about potential institutions and a letter of introduction once a target is located. My alma mater is fifteen miles from the mountain site, but has a small archaeology department with most professors more oriented to historic archaeology, but perhaps they could be enticed and partner with a larger Virginia university with more resources.

Lily,

I would like to see this story "break," and I do not have all the time in the world to help that happen. I originally contacted Jack when I found jasper on the mountain site. There are twenty known sources of jasper between Nova Scotia and NC, and it was a favorite material utilized by paleoindians. This, I thought, would be a calling card to get an archaeologist on site to see my rock finds. I had read about the Spout Run paleoindian site Jack was working on, and lucky for me he was very accessible. When he met me on site he reviewed some of the the rocks to pick out twenty or so that were "provable" Pleistocene artifacts. He explained to me that the key to the assemblage was the art as well as the tool making techniques. So this is not a hypothesis born in my mind, rather it activated my own thinking on the matter which over time embodied some of the content I posted in this thread. This process continues as I wrestle with possibilities and continue to discover more, having barely scratched the surface of potential understandings.

Tiompan,

Thanks for the link....I had not read that particular article yet. Yes, pareidolia, as one would expect, raised its pesky head in the comments. That seems to be the almost automatic go to one stop shop for refutation of this assemblage, but IMHO, I think it is an oversimplified manner of rejection, no offense intended.

I have looked through Jack's book on Spout Run and cannot corroborate your lat/long. The site is in Clarke County, Va in the upper northwestern part of the state adjacent to the WV line. It is in the NE corner of the county about one mile east of the north/south running Shenandoah River ca. five miles south of the WV line. That's about the best I can do at the moment.

Tiompan
Posts: 1140
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 5:13 am

Re: Problematic Discoveries

Post by Tiompan » Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:47 am

Springhead wrote: Tiompan,

Thanks for the link....I had not read that particular article yet. Yes, pareidolia, as one would expect, raised its pesky head in the comments. That seems to be the almost automatic go to one stop shop for refutation of this assemblage, but IMHO, I think it is an oversimplified manner of rejection, no offense intended.

I have looked through Jack's book on Spout Run and cannot corroborate your lat/long. The site is in Clarke County, Va in the upper northwestern part of the state adjacent to the WV line. It is in the NE corner of the county about one mile east of the north/south running Shenandoah River ca. five miles south of the WV line. That's about the best I can do at the moment.
Springhead ,

no offence taken .
Pareidolia was mentioned in the original case as it was the the best fit explalnation , it was not a knee jerk response . There are plenty of examples of genuine rock art found all the time that are not cases of pareidolia .
A more common explanation for mistaking rock art is simply not recognising natural markings for man made ones , rather than seeinmg specific shapes , as highlighted in the non rock art pics I linked to .

The site is surrounded by trees , and the the components sound like they would too small to be visible on GE .so I would need an accurate ref.
I've got the Spout Run itself ok just need to be more specific .

Springhead
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:50 am

Re: Problematic Discoveries

Post by Springhead » Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:44 am

Lily,

Jasper is cool stuff. I am trying to find the source of it on the mountain site. It may be associated with the sixteen plus layered lava flow with sedimentary rock in between each flow, the quartz conglomerate wake, etc, as the lava initially flowed on what was a beach setting in that local 570 mya. I have found jasper similar to the quality of the Thunderbird jasper and need to find out if it's local or imported. That alone is sizeable undertaking. In my phone conversation with Jack, he mentioned that there was pre clovis at Thunderbird and they had simply not dug deep enough, so perhaps pre clovis folks were fans of jasper as well as paleoindians. I have a variety of jasper tools from the mountain site.

Tiompan,

With the forested nature of the Spout Run site, it may be useful to to access the Clarke County, Va GIS site. There should be a topo layer in there that is handy for seeing land features associated with the site. Then you can layer in ariel photography with topo lines to perhaps pinpoint the spot. I will look through Jack's book again for more specific data as my last look was hurried. There should be lat/long in the glossary if nowhere else. You may be interested to know that another of Jack's studied sites is about due west of there in Clear Brook, Frederick County, Va on Opequan Creek which drains north to the Potomac River. This is the Arkfeld Site of which Jack has written another book. If you access the Pleistocene Coalition Magazine online you can read two articles by the Arkfeld site owner Adam Arkfeld in the past issues (maybe low 30's) in the Amateur Archaeology sections. One article has a location map for the site. Also in those sections is an article by Rick Donniger (sp?) about his non contexted levellois tool technique finds. There seem to be a growing number of discoveries pointing to the presence of much more ancient habitations in North America that previously suspected.

Tiompan
Posts: 1140
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 5:13 am

Re: Problematic Discoveries

Post by Tiompan » Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:21 am

Springhead wrote:
Tiompan,

With the forested nature of the Spout Run site, it may be useful to to access the Clarke County, Va GIS site. There should be a topo layer in there that is handy for seeing land features associated with the site. Then you can layer in ariel photography with topo lines to perhaps pinpoint the spot. I will look through Jack's book again for more specific data as my last look was hurried. There should be lat/long in the glossary if nowhere else.
Thanks Springhead ,
I have fund the putataive horizon markers ,Eagles Rock (which occupies a few degrees of the horizon whererever the site might be on Spout Run ,and is thus not really much use as marker (rough at best ). Because it is rough it spoils doing what should be a simple reverse process of where the two alignments would meet , i.e. if accurate , the site .
I have big doubts about the accuracy and also the problem of what can be seen on the horizon ,even when the trees are absent .
Has there been any palynology done at the site to indicate the type of ground cover at various periods ? I doubt it ,it certainly hasn't been mentioned in any of the stuff I have read ,or seen e.g. the you tube vids .
A major likely problem is that from much of Spout Run if not all of it, Bears Den Rock is not on the horizon , it simply isn't high enough .Even taking the highest point of the hill above the rock it, still isn't high enough and like Eagle rock , hardly an effective marker if you could see it .
If you have the lat long co-ordinates that would be great ,there is a also a V shaped saddle that is suppsedly the marker for the winter solstice , which would be great if you have the data for that ,or even the name of the hills involved .
There are problems ,but I realise they are not yours .

Springhead
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:50 am

Re: Problematic Discoveries

Post by Springhead » Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:57 am

Tiompan,

I still cannot find coordinates in the book, but apparently those are in Virginia Dept of Historic Resources records associated, I assume, with the site number: 44CK151. The mouth of Spout Run has an elevation of 673.' The cliff face is noted at 1226.' The site is on the western slope of Blue Ridge Mountain and is mostly greenstone with quartz inclusions (Catoctin Formation). At the time period studied, the environment was spruce forest interspersed with marshes, ponds, and prairie grasslands. Sunrise on the site is 45 minutes after actual sunrise times which results in a ten degree difference for site based measurements. I hate to keep feeding you data that may only complicate your life. The lat/long for the site was blocked out in the book, and it was noted that Va DHR had the information in their files. Maybe a security measure?

I am going to try to get zeroed in on google earth if possible. A while back I checked out the vector of summer solstice sunset at the approximate site location, and the vector went through the Meadowcroft Rock Shelter site in Pennsylvania. Interesting, but perhaps coincidental. With my mountain site having a knoll feature with solstice and equinox alignments with the local topographic landscape , I am interested in seeing Spout Run to observe what I might find in future investigations.

Springhead
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:50 am

Re: Problematic Discoveries

Post by Springhead » Thu Feb 11, 2016 10:48 am

Tiompan,

I tried google earth and was unable to get absolutely zeroed in on the site. The site elevation at 670' seems to jive, but the mouth of Spout Run appears to be around 370', so there's a discrepancy with the stated 670' for the mouth. In the historical imagery on GE there are winter images that may be easier to work with. If you get close to the site and zoom in nearly to treetop level and angle until it is relatively realistic, a ridge saddle can be seen, but the alignment with winter solstice sunrise is unclear based on the unknown exact location of the site. It appears that the equinox sunset vector may go right through the Arkfeld Site, but again, without more exact locating of the site, it is hard to know.

Tiompan
Posts: 1140
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 5:13 am

Re: Problematic Discoveries

Post by Tiompan » Thu Feb 11, 2016 10:55 am

Springhead wrote:Tiompan,

I still cannot find coordinates in the book, but apparently those are in Virginia Dept of Historic Resources records associated, I assume, with the site number: 44CK151. The mouth of Spout Run has an elevation of 673.' The cliff face is noted at 1226.' The site is on the western slope of Blue Ridge Mountain and is mostly greenstone with quartz inclusions (Catoctin Formation). At the time period studied, the environment was spruce forest interspersed with marshes, ponds, and prairie grasslands. Sunrise on the site is 45 minutes after actual sunrise times which results in a ten degree difference for site based measurements. I hate to keep feeding you data that may only complicate your life. The lat/long for the site was blocked out in the book, and it was noted that Va DHR had the information in their files. Maybe a security measure?

I am going to try to get zeroed in on google earth if possible. A while back I checked out the vector of summer solstice sunset at the approximate site location, and the vector went through the Meadowcroft Rock Shelter site in Pennsylvania. Interesting, but perhaps coincidental. With my mountain site having a knoll feature with solstice and equinox alignments with the local topographic landscape , I am interested in seeing Spout Run to observe what I might find in future investigations.
Thanks again Springhead .
I can find some spots where Bears Den rock could poossibly be seen from ,(as well of course the hill they are on and approx 100 fet below ) about 200 metres west of Ebenezer church but this means that Eagles rock is some days away from the equinox . Maybe best wait for some more precise co-ordinates . Any ideas on the V shaped saddle ?

Post Reply