Quicker Demise For Neanderthal?

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Postby Minimalist » Tue May 09, 2006 7:18 pm

That's the problem with the Out of Africa theory...why would they do it?
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Postby Beagle » Sat May 20, 2006 11:32 pm

American Journal of Physical Anthropology
Volume 128, Issue S41 , Pages 33 - 59

Haplotype Trees and Modern Human Origins (p 33-59)

Alan R. Templeton

Abstract

A haplotype is a multisite haploid genotype at two or more polymorphic sites on the same chromosome in a defined DNA region. An evolutionary tree of the haplotypes can be estimated if the DNA region had little to no recombination. Haplotype trees can be used to reconstruct past human gene-flow patterns and historical events, but any single tree captures only a small portion of evolutionary history, and is subject to error. A fuller view of human evolution requires multiple DNA regions, and errors can be minimized by cross-validating inferences across loci. An analysis of 25 DNA regions reveals an out-of-Africa expansion event at 1.9 million years ago. Gene flow with isolation by distance was established between African and Eurasian populations by about 1.5 million years ago, with no detectable interruptions since. A second out-of-Africa expansion occurred about 700,000 years ago, and involved interbreeding with at least some Eurasian populations. A third out-of-Africa event occurred around 100,000 years ago, and was also characterized by interbreeding, with the hypothesis of a total Eurasian replacement strongly rejected (P < 10-17). This does not preclude the possibility that some Eurasian populations could have been replaced, and the status of Neanderthals is indecisive. Demographic inferences from haplotype trees have been inconsistent, so few definitive conclusions can be made at this time. Haplotype trees from human parasites offer additional insights into human evolution and raise the possibility of an Asian isolate of humanity, but once again not in a definitive fashion. Haplotype trees can also indicate which genes were subject to positive selection in the lineage leading to modern humans. Genetics provides many insights into human evolution, but those insights need to be integrated with fossil and archaeological data to yield a fuller picture of the origin of modern humans.





In short, this abstract says that there has been interbreeding and gene flow out of Africa for almost two million years.

Also, I understand that Neandertal nuclear DNA has been obtained for the first time. If true, that would enable scientists to learn almost everything, from skin color to blood type.
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Postby Minimalist » Sun May 21, 2006 11:25 am

Here's a scholarly discussion of the two main theories.

It is very interesting but some of the assumptions seem weakly supported.

http://www.actionbioscience.org/evolution/johanson.html


Multiregional theory: homo erectus left Africa 2 mya to become homo sapiens in different parts of the world


Out of Africa theory: homo sapiens arose in Africa and migrated to other parts of the world to replace other hominid species, including homo erectus.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Postby Minimalist » Sun May 21, 2006 11:34 am

An exchange of letters in The American Scientist by two scholars.

http://www.americanscientist.org/template/AssetDetail/assetid/31207
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Postby Minimalist » Sun May 21, 2006 11:36 am

And, finally, a report backing multiregionalism from The Japan Times.


http://www.trussel.com/prehist/news248.htm


SYDNEY (Reuters) Australian and Chinese scientists have dated China's Nanjing Man as 580,000 to 620,000 years old, further supporting a multiregional theory of human evolution that argues Asians evolved locally and not out of Africa.

The scientists said Nanjing Man (Homo erectus), a male and female skull discovered in 1993 in Tangshan Cave near Shanghai, shows that humans evolved in isolation in China and much earlier than previously thought.

"We can confidently say the Nanjing Man fossils are older than 580,000 years and probably at least 620,000 years old," said Zhao Jianxin from the University of Queensland.

Scientists had previously estimated Nanjing Man to be about 400,000 years old. The "Out of Africa" theory of evolution argues that Homo erectus in Asia was replaced by Homo sapiens newly arrived out of Africa about 100,000 to 200,000 years ago.

"The Nanjing Man finding supports the multiregional evolution model that argues modern Asian populations evolved directly from Asian Homo erectus, rather than evolving from populations out of Africa," Zhao said.




This is some fascinating shit. And all of it accomplished without recourse to any silly-ass bible!
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Postby Minimalist » Sun May 21, 2006 11:45 am

Okay...I lied. Here's a more recent (2005) study.


http://www.physorg.com/news10534.html


"The 'Out of Africa' replacement theory has always been a big controversy," Templeton said. "I set up a null hypothesis and the program rejected that hypothesis using the new data with a probability level of 10 to the minus 17th. In science, you don't get any more conclusive than that. It says that the hypothesis of no interbreeding is so grossly incompatible with the data, that you can reject it."



Daybrown would like that if she ever shows up again.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Postby Beagle » Sun May 21, 2006 8:16 pm

I doubt that, in my lifetime this Out of Africa vs. Multi-regional model debate will be resolved. I think most people know where I stand though.
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Postby Minimalist » Tue May 23, 2006 7:35 am

A moderately interesting account of the finding of a city in Northwest China by a French/Chinese team until this bombshell....

French archaeologists said the corpses dated back 2,100 years according to C14 dating, and the four people belonged to the Caucasoid group of the Caucasian race. However, they could not explain where the people were from.

Generally speaking, the Caucasoid group mainly live in Europe, West Asia and northern Africa.



http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2006-05/22/content_597113.htm
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Postby Beagle » Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:01 pm

Tonight, on the Discovery channel, there was a two hour presentation called "Rise of Man". I thought it was terrible.


Homo erectus, Neandertal, and early modern man were portrayed terribly I thought. Even early modern man was shown as a filthy brute, naked in an Ice age winter except for some animal skins that were haphazardly thrown over their bodies.

Shows like this do nothing to help public perception and don't even reflect current thinking in science. :roll:
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Postby Minimalist » Thu Jun 01, 2006 11:00 pm

Agreed.

I saw it some time ago and it covered little new ground. It was like the re-make of The Poseidon Adventure. Why bother doing it again?
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Postby Beagle » Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:24 am

Some person or organization should bring a realistic film about HNS and HS to the screen. The film "Quest for Fire" back in "81 was a much better representation of mankind at that time. Fire is known to have been used by H. Erectus a million years ago.

The "rise of Man" special had the actors looking and acting much the same way. We know that Neandertal had a sewing kit among his tools, and that early HSS had an even better sewing kit - often made from fish bone.

Oliver Stone must do the directing. :roll:
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Postby stan » Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:41 pm

I enjoyed Quest for Fire, but I was very disappointed at the ending, which
I thought was implausible.
As I recall,the humanoids dropped their precious coals in the water during a celebration.
THe movie seemed to imply that they were too stupid to know that water would put out fire....and yet they had prior experience with it, and regarded it as big magic. As I recall, the guy who knocked it into the water was some sort of goofy spiritual leader who seemed to go into a frenzy.
So why were they so careless?

(Hey...I know it was just a movie!)
Last edited by stan on Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The deeper you go, the higher you fly.
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Postby Minimalist » Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:49 pm

Hey, I was disappointed by the endings to Blazing Saddles and Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

Sometimes they just can't think of a good ending.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Postby stan » Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:54 pm

I think they were trying to make a point, but I'm not sure
what it was.
The deeper you go, the higher you fly.
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Postby Beagle » Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:14 pm

Oh yeah, there was some goofy stuff there. But at least they were probably clothed more realistically and language skills may not have been too much better - although these characters only used grunts and chimpanzee sounds.

And I think mankind had learned the "missionary" position before then. :roll:
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